I'm starting 2 hope Jimmy can prove people wrong.

[koolkatluke]

What have you seen Jimmy do better than Moore?

I thought Jimmy knew the last system and by all accounts Moore blew him out of the water in camp.

I think the whole we were running the ND system is a overstatement. I think they had more of a passing game then in carolina. So while maybe having some of the same plays it was not the same offense. Charile Weiss while not being a good head coach is a better OC then Davidson. Moore was a 3 year vet under davidson so that gave him a head start on how Jeff runs his offense. Plus knowing the speed of the game was a head start too.

If Moore is resigned this year would be more of equal battle. They both will be learning a new system. They both would have a idea of the speed of the game and both have about the same starting exp.

[JawnyBlaze]

Jimmy might not have shown progression, but Moore showed regression. Jimmy hasn't necessarily hit his ceiling, Moore seems to have. That's why most are more willing to give Jimmy another chance.

[Cyberjag]

You don't think Moore is a better chance between Clausen and a washed up old vet? You said elsewhere that Moore would beat out both of those people so why isn't he an option?

You said yourself that the only way he wins the job is if we bring in a mentor as his only competition. Based on that logic, how do you think he will be so improved and has so much potential when he wouldn't be able to beat out Matt Moore or Tyler Thigpen or Tarvaris Jackson?

Quote my post next time, because I'm not about to go back and find it for you and you took my words out of context to make them your own. What I said was that Moore was likely to make the competition interesting, but even then I'm not sure he would beat Clausen, particularly not in a new offense for a new staff. And I went on to note that he probably wouldn't be back anyway because of a numbers game. I still believe that Clausen will beat any old benchwarmer out there, even the dreaded Tyler Thigpen.

[TheRealDeal]

I think the whole we were running the ND system is a overstatement. I think they had more of a passing game then in carolina. So while maybe having some of the same plays it was not the same offense. Charile Weiss while not being a good head coach is a better OC then Davidson. Moore was a 3 year vet under davidson so that gave him a head start on how Jeff runs his offense. Plus knowing the speed of the game was a head start too.

If Moore is resigned this year would be more of equal battle. They both will be learning a new system. They both would have a idea of the speed of the game and both have about the same starting exp.

So not one thing in there is what Jimmy does better than Matt

Jimmy might not have shown progression, but Moore showed regression. Jimmy hasn't necessarily hit his ceiling, Moore seems to have. That's why most are more willing to give Jimmy another chance.

Are you saying his ceiling is the Giants game? Stl Game? TB Game? SF Game?

I don't think you really understand the word ceiling. By Moore having up and down games, his ceiling is the "Up" games and needs to work on his consistency. With Clausen having mostly "down" or "average" games, you can assume that is his ceiling unless he proves otherwise. Moore also has games where he's had very, very good performances for a nice streak but people don't count those for various reasons and they do count this year for other various reasons.

If you think his ceiling in terms of career is that he will be an inconsistent starter and an above average backup that's fine, but how could you say Clausen's ceiling is higher when he's played just as much and hasn't come close to looking anything near Moore.

Moore also has more physical tools than Clausen, is bigger and stands better in the pocket, and is a better overall athlete than Clausen so I still think by saying he has a higher ceiling is buying into the hype that never should have been.

[blak-n-blu]

RealDeal... ten years has passed by and you're still trying to convince everyone Matt Moore is the saving grace. Give it a rest. You're M.Moore's wife, aren't you?

[Zithers]

didnt read thread.

doesnt everyone hope clausen can prove us wrong? i mean, then we'd have a franchise QB. just sayin.

[TheRealDeal]

You think he'll beat out Moore or you think our coaches will let Moore walk?

Basically you're saying if they bring in no competition he'll win.:crazy:

Moore, I'm not so sure about. I don't know that they'll bring him back though, he's going to cost a lot more than he's worth, and if he gets caught in a numbers game I think he loses. That's pure guesswork, take if for nothing more than that. And they may bring him back on the cheap after he tests the market and finds no takers.

I'm thinking more about all the Volek talk, and talk about other guys like him.

And I should also add that if they go get someone who's growing into the job, like Moore was supposed to be last year (think someone like Caleb Hanie), then Clausen may not win those battles either. But against old vets, he will.

Quote my post next time, because I'm not about to go back and find it for you and you took my words out of context to make them your own. What I said was that Moore was likely to make the competition interesting, but even then I'm not sure he would beat Clausen, particularly not in a new offense for a new staff. And I went on to note that he probably wouldn't be back anyway because of a numbers game. I still believe that Clausen will beat any old benchwarmer out there, even the dreaded Tyler Thigpen.

Quoted. How is saying that he would lose to guys like Hanie and Moore but beat out old vets a vote of confidence? How is that out of context?

You said nothing about interesting. You said Clausen may not win battles against Moore and Caleb Hanie, but will against old vets.

To me that says that if you bring in real competition, he is done. If you bring in a mentor that probably can't throw a football anymore, he's got a shot.

[TheRealDeal]

RealDeal... ten years has passed by and you're still trying to convince everyone Matt Moore is the saving grace. Give it a rest. You're M.Moore's wife, aren't you?

I just want this team to have the best QB possible and people arguing not even to bring Moore back to camp are just afraid he'll beat out their favorite player.

If you bring him to camp and Clausen is better, cut him. No harm in that.

If you don't bring him and we are forced to start Clausen, harm.

[Cyberjag]

Quoted. How is saying that he would lose to guys like Hanie and Moore but beat out old vets a vote of confidence? How is that out of context?

You said nothing about interesting. You said Clausen may not win battles against Moore and Caleb Hanie, but will against old vets.

To me that says that if you bring in real competition, he is done. If you bring in a mentor that probably can't throw a football anymore, he's got a shot.

My first statement:

Moore, I'm not so sure about.

My second statement:

if they go get someone who's growing into the job, like Moore was supposed to be last year (think someone like Caleb Hanie), then Clausen may not win those battles either

Your interpretation:

You said elsewhere that Moore would beat out both of those people so why isn't he an option?

And I didn't say he *would* lose to a guy like Hanie, I said he might. There's a real difference in meaning there. Somehow I think you know all that though, and just want to argue.

[TheRealDeal]

My first statement:

Moore, I'm not so sure about.

My second statement:

if they go get someone who's growing into the job, like Moore was supposed to be last year (think someone like Caleb Hanie), then Clausen may not win those battles either

Your interpretation:

You said elsewhere that Moore would beat out both of those people so why isn't he an option?

And I didn't say he *would* lose to a guy like Hanie, I said he might. There's a real difference in meaning there. Somehow I think you know all that though, and just want to argue.

So answer me this, without all the other bullshit attached to it.

If Moore is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If Hanie is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If Volek is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If Newton is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If Sexy Rexy is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If McNabb is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If Palmer is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If A Smith is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If Gradkowski is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If T Jackson is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

If Brian St. Pierre was in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

[Cyberjag]

Quoted. How is saying that he would lose to guys like Hanie and Moore but beat out old vets a vote of confidence? How is that out of context?

You said nothing about interesting. You said Clausen may not win battles against Moore and Caleb Hanie, but will against old vets.

To me that says that if you bring in real competition, he is done. If you bring in a mentor that probably can't throw a football anymore, he's got a shot.

I'm going to make one more attempt at clarity, as you seem to really need a lot of it.

I believe Clausen will get better. I acknowledge that there's a risk he doesn't.

I believe Matt Moore has shown what he can do, and I think there's a much stronger risk that he does not improve.

Anyone without a lot of experience will also carry risk.

Anyone who's been in the league for a long time, and who doesn't have a lot of experience, is not likely to have the skill to beat out Clausen.

Anyone who's been in the league for a long time, and who has a lot of experience, will probably win the job (I'm thinking of Hasslebeck or someone like that).

I believe the Panthers will carry three QBs.

I believe that they will prefer to keep Pike and Clausen, in case either develops.

Those are my assumptions. I am sure you disagree with some, and that's great, but kindly don't restate the conclusions I draw from them and attribute them to me. Here's what I think, based on those assumptions.

So, in the established framework we have three options for the Panthers.

First, draft a rookie QB. They do this if they're either very, very confident in Clausen, or if they're very, very confident in the rookie, or if they're going to give up on Pike or Clausen and sign a vet. I doubt they do this, honestly.

Second, re-sign Moore and go to camp to let the three they have fight it out. I kind of think that this is the riskiest situation, and they've already just about ruled it out with statements made.

Third, sign a young QB like Jake in 2003, someone who's probably ready to start. Yes, this guy will be a risk just like Clausen, but if they want to start building at the position next year it makes a lot of sense. And this, to me, is the scenario where the FA will have the most even playing field with Clausen.

Fourth, sign an older backup to provide a safety net for Clausen. This is fairly likely, because its lower risk, but if Clausen can't do it and this guy starts you're saying that you're giving up on any growth at that position in 2011.

Fifth, sign an older starter to assume the starting role and see if Clausen develops at all. This is the Rodney Peete option, it's lower risk but you again are giving up on growth at the position.

Sixth, trade for a legitimate starter, like Carson Palmer. This removes just about all risk, and makes growth unnecessary for several years.

In my opinion, they'll go with something lower risk. They have a lot of changes already, and they probably won't want the distraction of another disaster at QB to exacerbate any problems. So they will probably sign a vet unless they have a shot at a legitimate starter via trade. That leaves Moore as an odd man out, he's probably going to try and find another place where he'll get a better chance.

Which leaves Clausen, Pike, and a vet from option Four, Five, or Six above. If it's Six, it means the Panthers got lucky. If it's five, it means that they really have no faith in Clausen and they're kicking the issue down the road for a season or two. If it's Four, it's a sign that they think Clausen might develop, and they have just enough faith in that to let him try. If they have a lot of faith in him, they will go to options One or Three, because those are the ones with the most up-side.

Personally, I'm looking for a Billy Volek signing, and if he ends up having to play a lot due to anything but injury, we'll go option Five in 2012 and get rid of both Clausen and Pike.

Now I know you probably disagree with something I've said there. But hopefully you can at least see why I feel the way I do about what options the FO has, and what they'll do.

[Cyberjag]

So answer me this, without all the other bullpoo attached to it.

If Moore is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Probably

If Hanie is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Don't know

If Volek is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Yes

If Newton is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Yes, that goes for any rookie

If Sexy Rexy is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Good one--probably not but if he plays well and Rex struggles I can see him taking over

If McNabb is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

No, McNabb doesn't come unless he starts. But he's WCO, so he will look like dog-poo in our offense

If Palmer is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

No way

If A Smith is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Possible, but not probable. Depends on which Smith shows up

If Gradkowski is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

2009 Grad, no. 2010 Grad, yes

If T Jackson is in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Yes, because KK thinks I'm a racist

If Brian St. Pierre was in camp next year, do you see Clausen beating him out?

Yes, just by showing up

Answers in bold. :)

[TheRealDeal]

I guess most of our differences surround Pike and his roster status. I don't think there is a chance that he and Clausen are on the roster next year.

[Cyberjag]

You mean both he and Clausen, or just one of them? Or do you think Pike gets cut, and we go with Clausen, a vet, and either another vet or a draft pick?

That latter option raises interesting possibilities. I can see us with Clausen, Moore, and Volek, but not Clausen, Moore, and a Caleb Hanie. Clausen, Newton/Gabbard/whoever, and a Volek would be cool.

I still think that the most likely scenario is that Clausen is taking the first snap in training camp though, and probably for the first preseason game.