Jaws: "I wouldn't give up on Jimmy"

[Cyberjag]

In the last six games of our season, we faced the Falcons twice, the Steelers at their place, Seattle at their place, Cleveland at their place, and Arizona at home.

We almost beat Cleveland, and would have had either the defense held in the last four minutes, or if Kasay had made that 42 yarder as time expired. We did beat Arizona. Of the other four games, how many would you really consider as winnable for a rookie QB with rookie WRs on a team with no hope for the playoffs and a lame duck coaching staff?

[CRA]

Mav, it doesn't matter what Rivera says right now. He's a new HC, and a new coach for the Panthers. He can say anything right now, especially so early in the year, but there's a huge difference between a vision and execution. You still have to have the personnel to do it. Jaws is being a realist, and disregarding Rivera's comments as most should. He's looking at this team as a whole and he's seeing what anyone else would see looking at us from the outside, with an objective viewpoint. New coach or not, we just don't have the personnel on offense right now to make that happen.

Not only that, but it's also quite obvious Rivera's going to be focusing on defense, not offense.

It seems some people are hoping for some offensive miracle turn-around, but as it stands right now, those that hope this team will be a new team on offense next year are in for disappointment. At its best, the Panthers franchise were above average as a passing team. At its best, running game included, we were a top 10 offensive team, but still would not say elite.

But "at our best" also meant when we had Jake playing his best, one of the best O-lines in the NFL, Smith in his prime, Moose, Proehl, and a defense that would keep that O on the field more than our opponents' O.

We are so far away from that right now, with us having a shadow of our old O-line, two rookie receivers and an aging Smith, poor QB play and even a weaker running game, that the chances of us even coming close to the old Panthers offense are slim to none. Without major offensive acquisitions in the draft, such as Green, major QB improvement or FA vet pick-up in the off-season and major overhaul to our O-line, I fully expect a ball control offense come 2011.

Not much different from that of John Fox.

I really was hoping we would go in an offensive direction. But what I get from Rivera's statements is not that at all. Reading between the lines tells me he has his work cut out for him just to put together a scoring offense, let alone an aggressive, offensive, touchdown scoring machine like he "wants".

We just don't have the personnel for that. Period. And at least, right now, it doesn't look like we're seeking them. Now of course, that's as of right now, and anything can change, but unless some of those changes take place, ball control offense is what we'll get in 2011. If there is one.

Jaws seems to have disregarded what Rivera wants to do as well as what actually occured on the field in 2010.

an offensive turnaround is realistic.....all you need is average QB play and you can find that. The team won't be built around a QB. The OL and run game can flat out be beastly and we have enough skill position players to get the job done from a reciever standpoint. It is pathetic....but Carolina was one of the most talented 2 win teams I have seen.

[CRA]

In the last six games of our season, we faced the Falcons twice, the Steelers at their place, Seattle at their place, Cleveland at their place, and Arizona at home.

We almost beat Cleveland, and would have had either the defense held in the last four minutes, or if Kasay had made that 42 yarder as time expired. We did beat Arizona. Of the other four games, how many would you really consider as winnable for a rookie QB with rookie WRs on a team with no hope for the playoffs and a lame duck coaching staff?

Seattle was a winnable game if we got remotely decent rookie QB play.

but I wasn't so much concerned w/ wins and losses in regards to Clausen. I was more concerned w/ his play and growth. He simply didn't look like he had the mental or physical tools to continue playing.

[PantherFanForLife]

Jaws seems to have disregarded what Rivera wants to do as well as what actually occured on the field in 2010.

an offensive turnaround is realistic.....all you need is average QB play and you can find that. The team won't be built around a QB. The OL and run game can flat out be beastly and we have enough skill position players to get the job done from a reciever standpoint. It is pathetic....but Carolina was one of the most talented 2 win teams I have seen.

I disagree. We need a lot more than average QB play We need all the things mentioned above. And I'm not talking about turning around the offense, but the argument was about a "ball control offense".

I'm not saying we can't have a good offense, but no way we don't have a ball control offense with this personnel. Scoring won't be any easier for us next year without a major personnel overhaul, and the only thing a coach CAN do in that situation is a ball control offense. Where we score, and protect the lead, as any touchdowns will be priceless.

I just hope Rivera isn't as conservative as John Fox, where we're trying to run the ball to protect a 3 point lead in the 3rd quarter! But compared to other teams in the league, which we will be facing, I just don't see us being the offensive aggressor some are expecting.

[CRA]

I disagree. We need a lot more than average QB play We need all the things mentioned above. And I'm not talking about turning around the offense, but the argument was about a "ball control offense".

I'm not saying we can't have a good offense, but no way we don't have a ball control offense with this personnel. Scoring won't be any easier for us next year without a major personnel overhaul, and the only thing a coach CAN do in that situation is a ball control offense. Where we score, and protect the lead, as any touchdowns will be priceless.

I just hope Rivera isn't as conservative as John Fox, where we're trying to run the ball to protect a 3 point lead in the 3rd quarter! But compared to other teams in the league, I just don't see us being the offensive aggressor some are expecting.

when healthy, we have the OL, we have the RBs, and we have good enough WRs. The only real missing puzzle piece is some decent QB play. Not great QB play.

The team can score some points w/ a QB and without the same, predictable, and ineffective playcalling of Davidson/Fox.

The run game was nonexistant to start the season but Moore got the WRs in teh endzone at a decent pace for a running team. He just couldn't avoid the mistakes.

The team outside of QB isn't as bad imo as people often suggests. They just need a few upgrades at TE, DT, and RG. Those are unrealistic for a team that isn't being handcuffed b/c of a lameduck coach.

[PantherFanForLife]

when healthy, we have the OL, we have the RBs, and we have good enough WRs. The only real missing puzzle piece is some decent QB play. Not great QB play.

The team can score some points w/ a QB and without the same, predictable, and ineffective playcalling of Davidson/Fox.

The run game was nonexistant to start the season but Moore got the WRs in teh endzone at a decent pace for a running team. He just couldn't avoid the mistakes.

The team outside of QB isn't as bad imo as people often suggests. They just need a few upgrades at TE, DT, and RG. Those are unrealistic for a team that isn't being handcuffed b/c of a lameduck coach.

I don't think the play calling was the only problem. We had simple play calling and the execution was piss poor year round because defenses were simply shutting our offense down. Defenses knew our offense inside and out during our SB run too. No deceptive play calling there. Everyone knew we would run. We didn't hide it. But we executed! We ran them over and they could not stop us. THAT was the difference.

It's simple. To be an offensive aggressor that can score "at will", you offense needs to be better than 60-70% of the defenses out there. You can expose them at will, constantly apply pressure, drive up the score, and maintain the attack.

Do you really see us having that kind of an offense, even IF we get healthy and play our best? You can't get there when even if all the stars align, and all our problems get fixed, and all our players are playing their best....overall you are still an average NFL offense!

It just doesn't happen. You need a number of elite players on offense at different positions to be that type of team. Not one. But a number of them. QB, WR, RB and OL.

Typically at least one elite at each position. Before we could at least point to Smith and say...we'll he's one. Now...even that's not a guarantee.

[csx]

I have no problem whatsoever with "ball control". The problem wasn't attempted "ball control", it was that they couldn't even be that. Let them get the control part down before expecting something beyond that.

[PantherFanForLife]

I have no problem whatsoever with "ball control". The problem wasn't attempted "ball control", it was that they couldn't even be that. Let them get the control part down before expecting something beyond that.

Well to even be a ball control offense, you have to be able to score. The idea behind ball control is you play very efficient, protect your lead, make very few mistakes, and manage the clock with your run game.

Problem with that is we don't really have that type of personnel either. For that type of personnel you need VETS and EXPERIENCE. You have to make very, very few mistakes, because any mistake such as a turnover, or missed scoring opportunity costs you the game.

We're stuck between a rock and a hard place but we are closer from a coaching perspective to teaching players how to not make mistakes and score when you have a chance...then introducing gene mutating DNA into our personnel to turn them into something they are not.

So ball control is about Rivera's only option right now.

[CRA]

I don't think the play calling was the only problem. We had simple play calling and the execution was piss poor year round because defenses were simply shutting our offense down. Defenses knew our offense inside and out during our SB run too. No deceptive play calling there. Everyone knew we would run. We didn't hide it. But we executed! We ran them over and they could not stop us. THAT was the difference.

It's simple. To be an offensive aggressor that can score "at will", you offense needs to be better than 60-70% of the defenses out there. You can expose them at will, constantly apply pressure, drive up the score, and maintain the attack.

Do you really see us having that kind of an offense, even IF we get healthy and play our best? You can't get there when even if all the stars align, and all our problems get fixed, and all our players are playing their best....overall you are still an average NFL offense!

It just doesn't happen. You need a number of elite players on offense at different positions to be that type of team. Not one. But a number of them. QB, WR, RB and OL.

Typically at least one elite at each position. Before we could at least point to Smith and say...we'll he's one. Now...even that's not a guarantee.

hard to execute the same simple plays when the opponent knows what is coming at such a high rate. I disagree about the predictablity of plays during the Superbowl run. This was the 3rd consecutive season under Davidson using the same plays.....and he simply wasn't even as good as Henning.

Why exactly can't we have an offense in the ballpark of the 2008 offense in terms of production with some improved coaching/playcalling? Where is the huge gap in talent at?

Smitty seemed pretty dang effective in 2009 and 2010 with remotely decent QB play (meaning not Jake or Clausen). Carolina has tons of talent. They have more OL talent than most teams in the NFC when healathy and a better backfield.

[Mr. Scot]

Helps to define terms.

Every team wants "ball control" because nobody wants to fumble. But when you talk about a "ball control offense" you're generally referring to a team that plays it safe and doesn't take many chances (See: Fox, John).

I think "ball control" will be important to Rivera, but I seriously doubt he'll have the team running a "ball control offense".

[PantherFanForLife]

Helps to define terms.

Every team wants "ball control" because nobody wants to fumble. But when you talk about a "ball control offense" you're generally referring to a team that plays it safe and doesn't take many chances (See: Fox, John).

I think "ball control" will be important to Rivera, but I seriously doubt he'll have the team running a "ball control offense".

He has no choice. You work with what you got. And that's what we got. Average offensive players when at their best. And in the case of our QB, we're actually just hoping he has the potential to be at least average.

[Mr. Scot]

He has no choice. You work with what you got. And that's what we got. Average offensive players when at their best. And in the case of our QB, we're actually just hoping he has the potential to be at least average.

You might be able to make that label stick on Clausen, but from listening to him, I doubt Rivera would agree with that assessment of the other players on offense (except perhaps the tight ends).

He seems especially happy with the offensive line.

[PantherFanForLife]

You might be able to make that label stick on Clausen, but from listening to him, I doubt Rivera would agree with that assessment of the other players on offense (except perhaps the tight ends).

He seems especially happy with the offensive line.

Why would I care what Rivera says, especially right now, before he's even had one day in training camp or one pre-season game? He's a coach, he's not going to say anything BUT positive things about our personnel right now. Come on man! You know better.

I can take a look at our offensive players just like anyone else, and see without a shadow of a doubt that compared to the rest of the NFL, right now we're average and below on offense.

It doesn't take a genius to see that. And it's a known fact that you can't have an attacking, aggressive offense in the NFL if you're last on offense.

Teams like Indy, Patriots, Saints....those are attacking style aggressive offenses. Our offensive personnel, as a whole are like the equivalent of their back-ups. And really, that's not much of an exaggeration.

As a matter of fact, I will even go as far as to say if he tried to play like those teams, with our players...it will be a fuging disaster of epic proportions.

IF Rivera drafts Green, another WR like TY, picks up a hell of a FA QB, and 2 more above average veteran offensive lineman in the off season....then you can start dreaming about anything other than a ball control offense.

[CRA]

He has no choice. You work with what you got. And that's what we got. Average offensive players when at their best. And in the case of our QB, we're actually just hoping he has the potential to be at least average.

simply not true.

His OL isn't average. Nothing average about an OL with Gross, Wharton, Kalil, and Otah starting.

His backfield isn't average.

You can call this recieving options average.

If the QB could reach the level of those guys.....that would be incredible. That would not be an average(or below) offense though if the QB reached where everyone else was.