Ekwonu contract

[shaqattaq]

18 hours ago, Basbear said:

Icky did play better and horn did play 16 or 15 games. 

[WhoKnows]

19 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

We're praying Horn can stay healthy. He's been elite when on the field. That's a lot different than praying Icky learns how to pass protect. 

Has he truly been elite? I don’t recall our defense ever looking good over Horn’s career. I mean, is there even a noticeable scoring difference when he’s healthy? We have always, always overrated our guys and it’s pretty damn rare we actually have a player like Luke that it’s true. I loved Cam and he was a monster at times but we (most of us) revere him for his special plays more than results. Outside of the special 2015, he won 1 playoff game against a 3rd string QB. Don’t get me wrong, Cam was unbelievable at times but he’s a great example of us overrating players.

Just for shits and giggles, I checked points against. We gave up 25 ppg from 2021 to 2024. In Jaycee’s 37 games, we’ve give up 26 ppg. I’d say Brown is far more valuable as our points against went from mediocre to record breakingly bad. 

Edited Thursday at 04:34 PM by WhoKnows

[LinvilleGorge]

3 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

Has he truly been elite? I don’t recall our defense ever looking good over Horn’s career. I mean, is there even a noticeable scoring difference when he’s healthy? We have always, always overrated our guys and it’s pretty damn rare we actually have a player like Luke that it’s true. I loved Cam and he was a monster at times but we (most of us) revere him for his special plays more than results. Outside of the special 2015, he won 1 playoff game against a 3rd string QB. Don’t get me wrong, Cam was unbelievable at times but he’s a great example of us overrating players.

Our defense hasn't been elite. That doesn't mean that an individual player hasn't been. All an elite CB can do for your defense is greatly limit the other team's best receiver or greatly limit the passing success to his side of the field if he's a zone guy. There's still a lot of opportunity for the opposing team elsewhere. 

I'm not saying he's a Luke or a Peppers. He's not. But I think he's a top 10 CB when healthy. I consider a top 10 CB to be elite. If you have a different definition, that's fine. I'm not gonna really argue where we draw that line or even if you think Horn is saying top 15 instead of top 10. Again, fine. Not really gonna argue that either. All I'm really trying to argue is that Horn is pretty damn good when he's on the field.

[WhoKnows]

3 minutes ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Our defense hasn't been elite. That doesn't mean that an individual player hasn't been. All an elite CB can do for your defense is greatly limit the other team's best receiver or greatly limit the passing success to his side of the field if he's a zone guy. There's still a lot of opportunity for the opposing team elsewhere. 

I'm not saying he's a Luke or a Peppers. He's not. But I think he's a top 10 CB when healthy. I consider a top 10 CB to be elite. If you have a different definition, that's fine. I'm not gonna really argue where we draw that line or even if you think Horn is saying top 15 instead of top 10. Again, fine. Not really gonna argue that either. All I'm really trying to argue is that Horn is pretty damn good when he's on the field.

See my post edit above, he certainly hasn’t had that lockdown/on an island type of effect. Josh Norman has that type of effect for a couple years with us and I’ll be honest that I haven’t felt like that for Horn yet. Looking at his 2024 stats (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jaycee-horn/83375#seasonStatsWidget) doesn’t scream top QB. I think he’s good but I cringe a little when I hear he’s elite when healthy since his most healthy year was when we set a record for points against.

[LinvilleGorge]

12 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

See my post edit above, he certainly hasn’t had that lockdown/on an island type of effect. Josh Norman has that type of effect for a couple years with us and I’ll be honest that I haven’t felt like that for Horn yet. Looking at his 2024 stats (https://www.pff.com/nfl/players/jaycee-horn/83375#seasonStatsWidget) doesn’t scream top QB. I think he’s good but I cringe a little when I hear he’s elite when healthy since his most healthy year was when we set a record for points against.

If a CB is doing his job a lot of times he's not going to get a lot of stat production because the opposing QB is simply going to avoid throwing his way. There's easier ways to move the ball.

[MHS831]

what did he give up last year in terms of sacks at LT?  7--less than a half sack a game.  The Panthers surrendered 36 sacks in 2024.  That is 2.12 sacks per game.  That is not bad.  NFL average is estimated to be about 2 to 2.5 sacks per game.  Since the average OL surrenders 2+ sacks per game, one could reasonably assume the Tackles surrender more than guards and centers.  While I cannot find data per position, if Ickey is below the average for OL combined, it is safe to assume in terms of sacks that he is above average.

Moton only had 1 sack while playing.  So that means the guards / centers and subs surrendered 28 sacks.

Edited Thursday at 05:03 PM by MHS831

[WhoKnows]

Just now, LinvilleGorge said:

If a CB is doing his job a lot of times he's not going to get a lot of stat production because the opposing QB is simply going to avoid throwing his way. There's easier ways to move the ball.

True but his passer rating against was 91+. If he took away the other team’s best WR, we should have seen some sort of impact. I’m not saying he’s good, just haven’t seen elite.

[LinvilleGorge]

16 minutes ago, WhoKnows said:

True but his passer rating against was 91+. If he took away the other team’s best WR, we should have seen some sort of impact. I’m not saying he’s good, just haven’t seen elite.

Yeah, he probably got beat on those plays. We also only had 32 sacks all season while having the most pass attempts against us. By far the most pass attempts. We had 534 pass attempts against us. Second was the Cowboys with 66 fewer. The team that saw the fewest had over 200 fewer attempts against them. So we're not exactly comparing apples to apples here.

[kungfoodude]

On 4/16/2025 at 8:06 AM, MHS831 said:

Some Huddlers call him average at best, but his trajectory has been going up.  Recognize the job this OL coaching crew did this year--they were not kissing footballs--they were improving young players--Zavala is probably a starting RG on another roster; Mays outplayed Corbett; and Ekwonu is in the top half of the league as a LT. 

Ekwonu played at an above average starter level at LT but I wouldn't start calling that shot yet. If he trends even or upwards, we are in good shape moving forward.

I am not as bullish as you are on guys like Zavala and DEFINITELY Mays. I think they are backup caliber players, which is perfectly fine. Ideally, they don't see a ton of playing time.

RT will be a big hole once Moton is gone but I firmly believe C will have to be remedied eventually. We are going to need a top 15 ranked center eventually.

[kungfoodude]

1 hour ago, WhoKnows said:

Has he truly been elite? I don’t recall our defense ever looking good over Horn’s career. I mean, is there even a noticeable scoring difference when he’s healthy? We have always, always overrated our guys and it’s pretty damn rare we actually have a player like Luke that it’s true. I loved Cam and he was a monster at times but we (most of us) revere him for his special plays more than results. Outside of the special 2015, he won 1 playoff game against a 3rd string QB. Don’t get me wrong, Cam was unbelievable at times but he’s a great example of us overrating players.

Just for shits and giggles, I checked points against. We gave up 25 ppg from 2021 to 2024. In Jaycee’s 37 games, we’ve give up 26 ppg. I’d say Brown is far more valuable as our points against went from mediocre to record breakingly bad. 

Horn has been elite from time to time but never consistently. He is the most overrated Panther by our fanbase. Now, let me be perfectly clear for the people already screeching autistically, I believe Horn is a very good CB(when healthy). I have yet to be convinced he is an elite CB. 

IMO, similarly to Ikey(or really any of our young players minus perhaps Brown), there is still much in the way of improvement to go. 

But, at least we got an almost full slate of Horn last year. I hope that continues.

[LinvilleGorge]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

what did he give up last year in terms of sacks at LT?  7--less than a half sack a game.  The Panthers surrendered 36 sacks in 2024.  That is 2.12 sacks per game.  That is not bad.  NFL average is estimated to be about 2 to 2.5 sacks per game.  Since the average OL surrenders 2+ sacks per game, one could reasonably assume the Tackles surrender more than guards and centers.  While I cannot find data per position, if Ickey is below the average for OL combined, it is safe to assume in terms of sacks that he is above average.

Moton only had 1 sack while playing.  So that means the guards / centers and subs surrendered 28 sacks.

7 sacks allowed = 127th (out of 141)

39 pressures allowed = 130th

12 penalties = 130th 

Overall, the Panthers had the 2nd lowest pressure rate allowed in the NFL.

 

[Gapanthersfan]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

what did he give up last year in terms of sacks at LT?  7--less than a half sack a game.  The Panthers surrendered 36 sacks in 2024.  That is 2.12 sacks per game.  That is not bad.  NFL average is estimated to be about 2 to 2.5 sacks per game.  Since the average OL surrenders 2+ sacks per game, one could reasonably assume the Tackles surrender more than guards and centers.  While I cannot find data per position, if Ickey is below the average for OL combined, it is safe to assume in terms of sacks that he is above average.

Moton only had 1 sack while playing.  So that means the guards / centers and subs surrendered 28 sacks.

The needle is trending positive and I like the guy. I will continue to say it, the veteran leadership they infused last offseason was worth every penny, regardless of what it cost. 

I don’t envy Dan at all. This is like Phil Ivey just shoved on you on the turn and you’re holding top 2 pair. Sweating bullets. 

Ickey is a quiet, low key dude who is improving but it’s hard to fade the memories of him getting straight exploited and beat like a drum in his sophomore slump. He had no answer for speed rushers…. And that is what will keep Dan awake in this decision. 

Biggest Ickey questions: has he found a way to handle the speed rushers and does he have that dawg in him. If the answer to those 2 questions isn’t a resounding yes, I don’t see how they can throw huge money at him. 

[MHS831]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

Ekwonu played at an above average starter level at LT but I wouldn't start calling that shot yet. If he trends even or upwards, we are in good shape moving forward.

I am not as bullish as you are on guys like Zavala and DEFINITELY Mays. I think they are backup caliber players, which is perfectly fine. Ideally, they don't see a ton of playing time.

RT will be a big hole once Moton is gone but I firmly believe C will have to be remedied eventually. We are going to need a top 15 ranked center eventually.

I see your views on Zavala (small sample size--17th game) and Mays.  Depth is so important because it is rare to have all 5 play all season.    Agree on RT--I think we need to start preparing for that now. 

[kungfoodude]

2 hours ago, WhoKnows said:

True but his passer rating against was 91+. If he took away the other team’s best WR, we should have seen some sort of impact. I’m not saying he’s good, just haven’t seen elite.

It was statistically one of his worst seasons but there is a lot of nuance to that. Far worse overall defense than previously and the previous "elite" chunks have always been so small. 

Also, Evero doesn't use him to lock down a guy 1 on 1, which is kind of infuriating.