For those wanting a new QB

[top dawg]

The taking "the lesser of two evils approach", and "there's no one better" argument is unacceptable to those who believe that there are other options than to just accept the status quo. There is really nothing you can say to make me believe that we just have to pay Jake the money and hope that he doesn't disappoint us, when history tells us that this is ultimately what's going to happen. I, like others, are just ready to move on, and are not going to be quiet about it just because others want us to.

Until Jake is named the starter for the Panthers in 2009, why cry and have an emotional hissy-fit every time that someone criticizes him for play that warrants criticism? Jake's play has really only been outstanding during one season of his career. The off season provides all of us with the freedom to dream and hope (even if it's small hope or even a pipe dream). Whether it be Moore, a rookie, a supposed project on someone's bench, or another FA, I think that we could all be pleasantly surprised because IMHO we probably aren't going to get a ring either way this coming year. If I am going to be disappointed, then why not be disappointed with someone else? But, then again, disappointment could turn into surprise.

[panthers55]

The taking "the lesser of two evils approach", and "there's no one better" argument is unacceptable to those who believe that there are other options than to just accept the status quo. There is really nothing you can say to make me believe that we just have to pay Jake the money and hope that he doesn't disappoint us, when history tells us that this is ultimately what's going to happen. I, like others, are just ready to move on, and are not going to be quiet about it just because others want us to.

Until Jake is named the starter for the Panthers in 2009, why cry and have an emotional hissy-fit every time that someone criticizes him for play that warrants criticism? Jake's play has really only been outstanding during one season of his career. The off season provides all of us with the freedom to dream and hope (even if it's small hope or even a pipe dream). Whether it be Moore, a rookie, a supposed project on someone's bench, or another FA, I think that we could all be pleasantly surprised because IMHO we probably aren't going to get a ring either way this coming year. If I am going to be disappointed, then why not be disappointed with someone else? But, then again, disappointment could turn into surprise.

The issue many of us have about you whiners and cryers is that you have no idea what you are talking about. The status quo is good just not great. But there aren't many great quarterbacks in the NFL. As we have discussed ad nauseum, for the money, Jake had a better year in 2008 than most other guys above or below him. Because whether you like it or not success is measured in the NFL by wins and losses. And quarterbacks do a lot on the field and in the locker room besides just throw passes. Prima donna passers in the league wouldn't be happy handing off like Jake does. In fact most of them wouldn't be happy to know that if they throw the ball more than 40 times the team winning percentage plummets. It is true for most quarterbacks, they just don't like it.

What many of us know is that Jake has won more games than he has lost in all four of the past 4 seasons and five of the past 6. He has a winning percentage of 62% as the starter. That is better than most of the quarterbacks in the league including guys like Drew Brees.

You think we are settling but we are not. We know that Jake is a winner and finds a way to win the game whether it is throwing the ball or calling a successful run option off the pass or whatever. We have suffered through the Kerry Collins and David Carr first round problems and a number of other guys who have played for us.

You can complain all you want but the reality is you are nuts if you think Fox has any intention of replacing Jake with an unproven commodity. We just had our best season ever under Fox and tied for the best in the franchise history. Your lame attempts to criticize his stats or whatever is why Fox says stats are for losers. He watches coaches film and actually know what really happens on the field since he knows what play was called, who did what, and what should have happened. And with his career on the line he chose Jake and will choose him again. Because he knows that individual stats are for the hall of fame and for when a guys career is over. Until then wins and losses are all that matters. And Jake has one of the better winning percentages in the league. He won in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008.

So your continued whining isn't a sign you are riding the high road not settling for mediocrity. It is a sign that you have no idea what you are talking about and continue to complain no matter what the outcome. But I won't waste time rehashing the last 11 pages, it won't change your mind since you aren't reality based. So feel free to carry on and continue to complain. But understand that instead of seeing it as a badge of courage most of the intelligent posters here see it as a badge of ignorance.

Feel free to flame away, get in the last word and declare victory. It still won't change the facts nor will it sway the posters or opinions of folks who actually know what they are talking about.

[top dawg]

The issue many of us have about you whiners and cryers is that you have no idea what you are talking about. The status quo is good just not great. But there aren't many great quarterbacks in the NFL. As we have discussed ad nauseum, for the money, Jake had a better year in 2008 than most other guys above or below him. Because whether you like it or not success is measured in the NFL by wins and losses. And quarterbacks do a lot on the field and in the locker room besides just throw passes. Prima donna passers in the league wouldn't be happy handing off like Jake does. In fact most of them wouldn't be happy to know that if they throw the ball more than 40 times the team winning percentage plummets. It is true for most quarterbacks, they just don't like it.

What many of us know is that Jake has won more games than he has lost in all four of the past 4 seasons and five of the past 6. He has a winning percentage of 62% as the starter. That is better than most of the quarterbacks in the league including guys like Drew Brees.

You think we are settling but we are not. We know that Jake is a winner and finds a way to win the game whether it is throwing the ball or calling a successful run option off the pass or whatever. We have suffered through the Kerry Collins and David Carr first round problems and a number of other guys who have played for us.

You can complain all you want but the reality is you are nuts if you think Fox has any intention of replacing Jake with an unproven commodity. We just had our best season ever under Fox and tied for the best in the franchise history. Your lame attempts to criticize his stats or whatever is why Fox says stats are for losers. He watches coaches film and actually know what really happens on the field since he knows what play was called, who did what, and what should have happened. And with his career on the line he chose Jake and will choose him again. Because he knows that individual stats are for the hall of fame and for when a guys career is over. Until then wins and losses are all that matters. And Jake has one of the better winning percentages in the league. He won in 2005, 2006, 2007 and 2008.

So your continued whining isn't a sign you are riding the high road not settling for mediocrity. It is a sign that you have no idea what you are talking about and continue to complain no matter what the outcome. But I won't waste time rehashing the last 11 pages, it won't change your mind since you aren't reality based. So feel free to carry on and continue to complain. But understand that instead of seeing it as a badge of courage most of the intelligent posters here see it as a badge of ignorance.

Feel free to flame away, get in the last word and declare victory. It still won't change the facts nor will it sway the posters or opinions of folks who actually know what they are talking about.

Contrary to what you may believe, I am not a whiner---a dreamer maybe, but not a whiner. Furthermore, I stand by my posts and ability to make a logical and sensible argument supporting my position. And, I am sure that others on this board would agree. You may not agree, but so what.

Ultimately Delhomme was paid top money in order to bring a championship to Carolina. Mr. Richardson wanted us to not only have the opportunity to win a championship within the first 10 years of the franchise, but wanted us to have a championship. To that end, Delhomme has under-delivered---regardless of your ramblings about win-loss records. Great QBs are judged by their decision making on the field. Delhomme has had questionable decision making throughout his career, so it's not like we are talking even Carson Palmer or Drew Brees material. You don't here people clamoring for their release even though they haven't had the best win-loss percentage. And, it's not like Jake won the games by himself. Go figure.

Even the sports analysts and football pundits raised an eyebrow when Delhomme got that big contract. And, now, after the biggest disaster that I have seen a professional QB have in a playoff game, you think that there aren't going to be people who see Jake's performance as a confirmation of all their fears. You saw the game, and probably the tape, like everyone else. So excuse me if I am not as optimistic as you are, or don't have the undying belief that Jake is going to get it done.

You're probably going to get your way anyway, so be happy. The ramblings of myself or anyone else on this board is not going to change the price of tea in China. Hopefully Jake will prove the naysayers wrong, and we'll all be happy. The day that he (and John Fox) brings a championship to Carolina will be a day when his supporters can scream, "I told you so!" I am sure that all of his critics on this board will be happy to eat crow if that day ever comes. Like I said, it's OK to dream (for you to do so, and me).

[panthers55]

Contrary to what you may believe, I am not a whiner---a dreamer maybe, but not a whiner. Furthermore, I stand by my posts and ability to make a logical and sensible argument supporting my position. And, I am sure that others on this board would agree. You may not agree, but so what.

Ultimately Delhomme was paid top money in order to bring a championship to Carolina. Mr. Richardson wanted us to not only have the opportunity to win a championship within the first 10 years of the franchise, but wanted us to have a championship. To that end, Delhomme has under-delivered---regardless of your ramblings about win-loss records. Great QBs are judged by their decision making on the field. Delhomme has had questionable decision making throughout his career, so it's not like we are talking even Carson Palmer or Drew Brees material. You don't here people clamoring for their release even though they haven't had the best win-loss percentage. And, it's not like Jake won the games by himself. Go figure.

Even the sports analysts and football pundits raised an eyebrow when Delhomme got that big contract. And, now, after the biggest disaster that I have seen a professional QB have in a playoff game, you think that there aren't going to be people who see Jake's performance as a confirmation of all their fears. You saw the game, and probably the tape, like everyone else. So excuse me if I am not as optimistic as you are, or don't have the undying belief that Jake is going to get it done.

You're probably going to get your way anyway, so be happy. The ramblings of myself or anyone else on this board is not going to change the price of tea in China. Hopefully Jake will prove the naysayers wrong, and we'll all be happy. The day that he (and John Fox) brings a championship to Carolina will be a day when his supporters can scream, "I told you so!" I am sure that all of his critics on this board will be happy to eat crow if that day ever comes. Like I said, it's OK to dream (for you to do so, and me).

Of course you support your own ability to make an argument. You see that as clearly as you do Delhomme. Your a legend in your own mind.

As for Jake's decision making, once again you know absolutely nothing. You aren't in the huddle, you don't know what should have happened, what play was called, what audible should have been called, if receivers ran their routes and a number of other things. All you see is the result of the play which tells you very little unless you know what should have happened.

And before you say it, I wasn't in the huddle either. hence why I don't say he has good decision or poor decisionmaking. I really don't know. Unlike you however I try not to comment on things I have no knowledge. Unfortunately you don't share the same inhibition.

Will Jake get it done? Honestly I don't really know. If anyone had asked me I really thought this year was the one. Will he even get back to the Superbowl to try? It better be in the next few years as he doesn't have much time yet.

I just know that no matter how horrible he was in the playoffs, and he was indeed horrible, that it doesn't define him or limit what he can do in the future. On the other hand it isn't a given he should be the starter going forward next year. He will have to prove he is the best guy for the job and gives us the best chance to win. Othrwise he may be replaced just as he replaced Peete. Fox has shown he will pull the trigger just like he did with Peete.

Will I be happy or sad about that? Depends on how the replacement does. As long as we win I don't care who is the quarterback. Like many here I am a Panthers fan not a Jake fan. I only like him because he wins and up to the present is still the best we have. Once he isn't anymore he will be a pleasant memory much like Beuerlein is to me now.

[Spike]

You dont have to be in the huddle to tell Delhomme is awful at reading defenses and will pass up an open receiver to try and force it to Smith while Smith is triple covered when he has a TE or RB or a WR on a slant route open.

[top dawg]

Of course you support your own ability to make an argument. You see that as clearly as you do Delhomme. Your a legend in your own mind.

I am the legend in my own mind, huh? I guess that it has escaped you that you are the one who is screaming bloody murder and insinuating that I don't know what I am talking about because I express an opinion, very eloquently I might add, about what I see on the field that disagrees with yours. I am not calling you an idiot because you support Jake for whatever reason, but you and others aren't intelligent enough to separate emotions from the arguments. I guess that with most people it is impossible to agree to disagree, but more people should try it. You appear not to realize that a message board, by its very nature, is meant to discuss different point of views without all of the condescension and patronization that apparently is your forte.

The true fact of the matter is that you don't know who or what I know, so you are making assumptions yourself. Despite whatever I know, your trying to call me out, or any other fan, based on what we don't know about what goes on in the huddle is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. I know the results that I see and, unlike you, I don't believe that you have to exactly know what the source of the problem is before you know that there is a problem. If a problem persists, or leaves for awhile then returns, then obviously something needs to be done to fix it. I also don't have to lie to my eyes by discounting what i see. If I believe that Jake has problems with checking his receivers and forcing the ball into double or triple coverage (i.e., he has trouble making good decisions), then obviously that is from looking at his results on the field (It's somewhat like your win-loss theory---results oriented), and regardless of what goes on in the huddle, the decision making and the result is what's important. My standards are obviously different than yours, so what. They are different. And therein lies our difference of opinion, not some nebulous argument about what goes in the huddle.

Like i said, I really hope he proves me wrong. He has had more than ample opportunity to do so, and will have the opportunity again from the looks of things. I am not going to cry about it. Neither am I going to question your football knowledge just because you disagree with me. You have that right. Just don't try and and mask your own shortcomings, in a weak argument about what i don't know in reference to the huddle or football in general, that cause you to belittle people about opinions that are based on nothing but play on the field. My opinion, your opinion, and most other persons' opinions who are not coaches or players are not based on what we know about what goes in the huddle, so to bring that into the argument is pretty useless.

I think Jake has had a decent run, but that we could stand a change. Get over it, and get over yourself.

[Mr. Scot]

The taking "the lesser of two evils approach", and "there's no one better" argument is unacceptable to those who believe that there are other options than to just accept the status quo. There is really nothing you can say to make me believe that we just have to pay Jake the money and hope that he doesn't disappoint us, when history tells us that this is ultimately what's going to happen. I, like others, are just ready to move on, and are not going to be quiet about it just because others want us to.

Until Jake is named the starter for the Panthers in 2009, why cry and have an emotional hissy-fit every time that someone criticizes him for play that warrants criticism? Jake's play has really only been outstanding during one season of his career. The off season provides all of us with the freedom to dream and hope (even if it's small hope or even a pipe dream). Whether it be Moore, a rookie, a supposed project on someone's bench, or another FA, I think that we could all be pleasantly surprised because IMHO we probably aren't going to get a ring either way this coming year. If I am going to be disappointed, then why not be disappointed with someone else? But, then again, disappointment could turn into surprise.

Where have I seen this logic before?

Ah yes, it was usually paired with the words "Start Weinke"

The options you've suggested here are not options a real NFL coach - whose job depends on the decisions he makes - is going to take seriously.

This isn't Madden. It's the real world, and in the real world you do not get rid of an established starter without an equal or better option available. And right now, none exists.

I can't even believe people are still holding out hope for this when it's been stated by a beat writer who's rarely wrong that it just isn't going to happen :nonod:

[raleigh-panther]

Quote: This isn't Madden. It's the real world, and in the real world you do not get rid of an established starter without an equal or better option available. And right now, none exists.

No disrespect; but, wasn't Rodney Peete an established starter?

Again, I have defended Delhomme in years past, no more.

He has hit his apex.

That performance in the playoffs was beyond abysmal. His ass should have been put on the bench. Show me a RB that could fumble 6 times and still be playing. No amount of 'aw shucks', I screwed up fixes that. Its pro football, not Pop Warner. After xx years in the league, his mechanics are his mechanics, his decision making is his decision making, his arm strength is his arm strength.

Is he a team guy, yes. Is he a likeable person, yes. Thos intangibles aren't in question; but, at the end of the day, intangibles aren't enough.

I don't think anyone is calling for him to be cut outright; but, the reality is the Panthers have passed on top quality QBs throughout Fox's tenure here, or made no attempt to move up and get one. The latest, Brady Quinn. Who has the upside? Delhomme? ..or Quinn? There is, and has been, no plan to evaluate and draft a QB, and let's not talk about Stefan Lefors in the 4th round.

Everyone has their opinions and almost everyone on the board is extremely knowledgeable.

If I were a betting person, I"d say that Fox won't be back after this year and neither will Delhomme and because Fox values QBs as much as he values TEs and Safeties, we won't have a decent replacement for Delhomme.

[Pantherxtreme]

I don't understand all the Jake hate, after 1 bad game.

I've never been a huge Jake fan, but I do know he is more than good enough to win a championship. It takes more than a decent/good QB to win a championship. It takes a supporting cast, and defense. Without those things, the QB won't matter dick. We have a pretty good supporting cast (offensively), we need a few defensive pieces, and a solid (consistent) performance this upcoming season ~ and we'll be more than fine. With any new QB, I'd venture to bet that it would take an even better defense to help. Either way, with Jake, or Moore, combined with our running game, and a defense, there is no reason to say we can't win a superbowl.

If Rothlisberger(sp) turned the ball over 6 times in the playoffs even with his supporting cast and all world defense, the Steelers would not reigning Superbowl champs right now.

We have the pieces on offense to be great(with a better quarterback), the defense when Peppers leave will have a huge hole to fill and will be a question mark.

[X-Clown]

but, the reality is the Panthers have passed on top quality QBs throughout Fox's tenure here, or made no attempt to move up and get one. The latest, Brady Quinn.

I don't know what league you've been watching, but I don't see that Brady Quinn is exactly Matt Ryan yet. And I really don't think you want to play the card right now that Quinn is worth the picks of both Jon Beason and Ryan Kalil because that's who we ended up getting when dealing the 14th pick in the 07' draft. Both of those guys are starters now, and will be for the next 10 years. The truth is, no one knows what Quinn can or can't do yet.

[Fireball77]

The truth is, no one knows what Quinn can or can't do yet.

And the fact of the matter is that Jake had more tape of him as a pro for the Panthers to look at and evaluate before bringing him in as a FA than Quinn has as a pro even now. I wonder if Quinn hadn't been a first round QB but some guy like Troy Smith who was drafted lower, would fans be calling him a quality QB and clamoring for him? Neither one of them has proven either to be one or not to be one. I do know this...I read that the Ravens fully planned to start Troy Smith over Flacco though which means they weren't convinced that their first rounder was ready over a 5th rounder who had been there for a year. And Roethlisberger was only starting as a rook because Maddox got hurt.

[pantherclaw]

If Rothlisberger(sp) turned the ball over 6 times in the playoffs even with his supporting cast and all world defense, the Steelers would not reigning Superbowl champs right now.

We have the pieces on offense to be great(with a better quarterback), the defense when Peppers leave will have a huge hole to fill and will be a question mark.

Well no duh. That is obvious.

What people like you, and others don't know is upset and pissed off I was with the game. Yall act like I was alright with it. So please, shut the hell up, since you don't know what you are talking about there.

While I don't love Jake, I do know he has won us more games than not.

I also know that as long as John Fox is our head coach, that defense will always be a high priority, with high expectations from them. So I don't worry to much about the "defense is going to continue it's downward spiral" talk, cause that is just people talking out of their asses, still being emotional after the season. The defense will get better. I realize at the moment, with Peppers leaving, and we not even at FA, let along the draft, it's difficult to see how it will be better, but to just throw up the white flag is stupid and ignorant.

I also know that the Panthers offense will continue to be ball control, and the running game is going to be a big part of that. How people ignore that, I do not know.

While I'd love to have a better QB, we have bigger priorities, and we can win with Jake, and even Moore.

[panthers55]

Quote: This isn't Madden. It's the real world, and in the real world you do not get rid of an established starter without an equal or better option available. And right now, none exists.

No disrespect; but, wasn't Rodney Peete an established starter?

Again, I have defended Delhomme in years past, no more.

He has hit his apex.

That performance in the playoffs was beyond abysmal. His ass should have been put on the bench. Show me a RB that could fumble 6 times and still be playing. No amount of 'aw shucks', I screwed up fixes that. Its pro football, not Pop Warner. After xx years in the league, his mechanics are his mechanics, his decision making is his decision making, his arm strength is his arm strength.

Is he a team guy, yes. Is he a likeable person, yes. Thos intangibles aren't in question; but, at the end of the day, intangibles aren't enough.

I don't think anyone is calling for him to be cut outright; but, the reality is the Panthers have passed on top quality QBs throughout Fox's tenure here, or made no attempt to move up and get one. The latest, Brady Quinn. Who has the upside? Delhomme? ..or Quinn? There is, and has been, no plan to evaluate and draft a QB, and let's not talk about Stefan Lefors in the 4th round.

Everyone has their opinions and almost everyone on the board is extremely knowledgeable.

If I were a betting person, I"d say that Fox won't be back after this year and neither will Delhomme and because Fox values QBs as much as he values TEs and Safeties, we won't have a decent replacement for Delhomme.

Jake is the best option until someone unseats him. I hope we explore a few possibilities in the draft and free agency this year plus continue to develop Moore.

We have a new quarterback coach so all the talk about the past is just that, the past. Lets see what he and Davidson have in mind.

As for Jake's skills, decisionmaking and mechanics mean very little. Wins and losses do. So as long as the team goes 12-4 with him at quarterback, those who want a change are wasting their time and breath. Record will always be the most important issue so those who say stop using the 12-4 argument are ignorant of what matters in football. 12-4 is all that matters.

Before you lose money betting on Fox and Delhomme leaving consider this. The only guy who was fired recently after a season like we had in 2008 for their playoff performance was Schottenheimer in San Diego. And the Chargers haven't gotten close to 14-2 since then. As long as Fox wins he will be here plain and simple. The only way he leaves after this year is if the team implodes and is awful. Caper had to go 4-12 and lose the team before he got the boot. Seifert 1-15 before he was fired. Fox has been much better than that and will likely do so in the future. If Fox leaves it will likely be his choice not Richardson's. Oh and about Jake, don't cry when instead of getting fired he actually gets an extension.

[raleigh-panther]

I respect your opinions and we can agree to disagree.

As you, like many on this board are very knowledgeable and passionate about the team.

We just have different views.

A QB like Quinn, or Flacco, or Matt Ryan, do not come along every day, and when they do, and your a team sitting there, knowing you will have a need to fill, and you don't act, you wind-up with what the Panthers have now. Scrubs. Neither of which could probably start a full season for most teams. That's my opinion. Serviceable, yes they are. Long term, a franchise player, no, they aren't.

On retention of Fox, JR wants a Superbowl, has been very clear about it. Fox has had a substantial amount of time to get that done and has been given everything he has asked to have it happen. His contract expires in 2010.

I would be willing to bet money, that given the schedule next year, Fox will be 9-7 at the very best, and if that happens, the Fox era is done. Fox's past two NFC playoff games also, have been abysmal. Embarrassing in fact.

Comparing Shottenheimer did not have the length of service with the Chargers that Fox has had with the Panthers..

At the end of the day, only JR knows what will happen.