Cam Newton Public Workout

[mav1234]

You have a point there. I don't think people mean it as racism or even realize they're doing it in some cases, but there is something there. It's subtle, but it's there.

How else do you explain the fact that so many people are already convinced that Locker can be "fixed" , but Newton can't? Hell, Locker has already had 3 extra years of div. 1 coaching compared to Cam and he has only got worse.

I was unaware many thought Cam Newton couldn't be fixed. I just thought people thought he'd likely be a long term project.

Locker is really in a weird place right now. He's got a lot of the tools but he seems to force it. People think he can fix it, sure, but other scouts are projecting him to fall pretty damn far. At the same time, his experience in a pro-style offense helps his cause with the NFL. So too does him playing with a terrible, terrible supporting cast.

I don't know where Locker will end up. He didn't help himself at the Senior Bowl.

[blackcatgrowl]

Just one example but Ben Roethlisberger played in a spread offense right? I don't remember any scouts saying he couldn't read defenses or he was just a running QB.

Exactly.

And for anyone following this story, Ben's QB trainer just spent 4 days with Cam going over footwork taking snaps from center, and is "blown away."

He's not going to say that, and risk his credibility with other players who might contract for his services, if he didn't mean it.

[Mr. Scot]

I think thats the only point people are trying to make with the racism talk. That was my only point atleast.

College coaches screw over a lot of guys - athletic QBs, spread QBs, run-and-shoot QBs, etc - but it's not deliberate or race-based. It's a matter of conflicting goals.

A college coach's primary job isn't to prep guys for NFL careers. It's to win games. Unfortunately, what wins games at the college level often doesn't translate well to the pro level.

That's the reason why I'm not optimistic it'll be fixed anytime soon

[mav1234]

Exactly.

And for anyone following this story, Ben's QB trainer just spent 4 days with Cam going over footwork taking snaps from center, and is "blown away."

He's not going to say that, and risk his credibility with other players who might contract for his services, if he didn't mean it.

Exactly what? Big Ben didn't run in college. He took snaps from shotgun and ripped apart defenses for three years. If he had come out after his freshman year, you better believe people would have had more questions about his ability to read defenses etc. But no, he never woulda been called a running quarterback... but not because he was white, but because he didn't run.

His QB coach isn't going to say anything else but "Wow, Cam's doing great!" because if he did he'd probably be fired and not get paid. Plus he probably LIKES trying to help the QB. He's bias. He's going to say positive things.

[Mr. Scot]

<shrug> Read closer?

roflmao... Saying I see subtle racism is the same thing as a personal attack?

That's some great logic there buddy.

I did. You're continuing to ignore it. See my "Official Statement" for clarification.

So you want to reserve the right to insinuate that people are racist when they disagree with you, even if you can't actually show where they said anything that could be taken as racist.

That's just sad :nonod:

[CarolinaKat]

His QB coach isn't going to say anything else but "Wow, Cam's doing great!" because if he did he'd probably be fired and not get paid. Plus he probably LIKES trying to help the QB. He's bias. He's going to say positive things.

He gets paid to improve people not lie about what their doing.

[blackcatgrowl]

Exactly what? Big Ben didn't run in college. He took snaps from shotgun and ripped apart defenses for three years. If he had come out after his freshman year, you better believe people would have had more questions about his ability to read defenses etc. But no, he never woulda been called a running quarterback... but not because he was white, but because he didn't run.

Well, on a fundamental level, I don't see how anyone can consider a dual-threat QB a negative AS LONG... and this is the whole point here... AS LONG as he can make throws and doesn't press passes into coverage.

There's a lot of Vick/Newton comparisons... but even if you go back to Vick's college stats, the story was the same. He was NOT a GREAT passer. Still isn't really. He's just decent.

But do you remember how many times he handed our Panther's their asses? Yeah, we got to him some from time to time, but fresh out of college he was destroying defenses with his legs.

Now imagine if you can take just a notch below Vick's legs and put them together with just a DECENT pass ability. But what if it became a GREAT pass ability? We could (big could, not saying with absolute certainty) have the ultimate package if we get him. At the very least we'll be better off than we are now.

[TheRealDeal]

I'll take that as you don't know then. Just like you don't know if his foot work will get better, just like you don't know that he won't be a good nfl QB. The main point is you don't know. Don't speak like what your saying is a fact when it's just your opinion. Only thing you have to rely on is what other people have said, whatever their reason for saying it.

I've never once said he won't be a good NFL QB just that he needs just as much as everyone else, maybe more since he was a heavy runner in college. Is that really hard to understand?

Just one example but Ben Roethlisberger played in a spread offense right? I don't remember any scouts saying he couldn't read defenses or he was just a running QB.

If you can't see the difference in their style of play then you are just being a homer. Ben was not a runner. There is a spread and spread option attack. One uses the QB a lot to run the ball and the other just uses more wideouts and shotgun formations. Cam is a running QB, Ben never was. Not to say it can't change but right now the only commonality is their body size.

How else do you explain the fact that so many people are already convinced that Locker can be "fixed" , but Newton can't? Hell, Locker has already had 3 extra years of div. 1 coaching compared to Cam and he has only gotten worse.

Maybe you guys are getting criticism and critiquing for hating. I haven't seen one person say that Newton can't be "fixed"...Not one. Most people feel he jsut needs a little more work before he transitions to the NFL and we don't think it'll be as easy for him as it was at Blinn and Auburn.

Let me repeat. We do not think he can't get better.

I was unaware many thought Cam Newton couldn't be fixed. I just thought people thought he'd likely be a long term project.

This again.

His QB coach isn't going to say anything else but "Wow, Cam's doing great!" because if he did he'd probably be fired and not get paid. Plus he probably LIKES trying to help the QB. He's bias. He's going to say positive things.

This again. He's likely improved but if anyone expects anything bad out of his mouth TO THE PUBLIC then they are fooling themselves. He might take calls closer to the draft and talk in confidence with execs and GMs but he's not going to say anything in the public other than good things.

[blackcatgrowl]

So you want to reserve the right to insinuate that people are racist when they disagree with you, even if you can't actually show where they said anything that could be taken as racist.

That's just sad :nonod:

Ok, lets try reverse logic since forward logic isn't working with you.

Who am I insinuating, SPECIFICALLY, BY NAME, is racist?

[TheRealDeal]

There's a lot of Vick/Newton comparisons... but even if you go back to Vick's college stats, the story was the same. He was NOT a GREAT passer. Still isn't really. He's just decent.

But do you remember how many times he handed our Panther's their asses? Yeah, we got to him some from time to time, but fresh out of college he was destroying defenses with his legs.

Now imagine if you can take Vick's legs and put them together with just a DECENT pass ability. But what if it became a GREAT pass ability? We could (big could, not saying with absolute certainty) have the ultimate package if we get him. At the very least we'll be better off than we are now.

Many people would argue that the bold refers to Armanti and not Cam. Cam doesn't have the legs of Vick. 4.2 to 4.5 is as big a difference as 4.5 is to 4.8.

Cam isn't the runner Vick was, don't try and force the comparisons. His top end speed and quickness are nothing compared to Vick.

[blackcatgrowl]

Many people would argue that the bold refers to Armanti and not Cam. Cam doesn't have the legs of Vick. 4.2 to 4.5 is as big a difference as 4.5 is to 4.8.

Cam isn't the runner Vick was, don't try and force the comparisons. His top end speed and quickness are nothing compared to Vick.

Facts TRD... Facts..

http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2001/0508/1193460.html

Michael Vick ran a 40 in 4.36 in rookie mini-camp.

Newton has run a 40 in 4.51

.15 seconds is a difference, but not a mind blowing difference. Definitely not the same difference as a 4.8 and a 4.5

P.S. You'll notice I revised my post to saying a "Notch" under Vick, before it was a full blown edit, as he is a notch under.

[mav1234]

Didn't Vick run a 4.25 at the combine or something like that?

pretty big difference from 4.51.

We'll see what Newton does at the combine; until then, I think saying he has the same legs as Vick is extending a bit. No doubt he is quick and agile but I still believe he will need to change his style of play in the NFL. I admit i could be wrong though.

[Mr. Scot]

Ok, lets try reverse logic since forward logic isn't working with you.

Who am I insinuating, SPECIFICALLY, BY NAME, is racist?

If you were calling people by name, it'd actually be easier.

Instead, you've just been throwing out suggestions that everyone from people on this board to actual NFL scouts are either racist themselves or "influenced by racism". And the only actual evidence you have to support your point is that they disagree with your evaluation of Cam Newton. To call that 'weak" would be a compliment.

I'll issue you the same challenge as before, the one which you've repeatedly dodged...

Either produce an actual statement that can show evidence that someone is racist, or stop dragging the whole discussion down by throwing out baseless charges of "subtle" or "hidden" racism or "racial overtones".

Showing where one guy made a statement that could be taken as racist applies only to that guy. It cannot be then applied to anyone else unless you can also show they made similar statements or agreed with that person.

And don't bother with "I've already done that" because anyone reading this thread can see that you haven't :nonod:

[monstercat]

FTR, my comment about people thinking that Locker can be fixed but Cam can't, was about people and the media in general, not anybody on this board.

Say whatever you want, but the perception is out there and can't be denied. It's no secret that Locker was thought to be worthy of the #1 pick by a lot of people last year, and I still can't figure out why.