Cam Newton Public Workout

[blackcatgrowl]

Show me the posts where "several people defended it".

Why? So you can ignore it again?

Give up on the "subtly racist" stuff, and the "racist scouts" stuff, because you've got nothing on that.

Only the fact I've witnessed it first hand, and other NFL players have mentioned seeing it, and it's reared its head on this forum.

Again, if you can't actually show where someone has made a racist statement, going with the "subtle racism" or "hidden racism" is just a baseless personal attack.

How is it a "personal attack" to say I see something wrong on a sociological level?

IF YOU are perceiving it as a personal attack, that's your problem. I've already said I don't believe you are.

AGAIN... I am NOT KT.

[blackcatgrowl]

sounds good. Like I said, my issue is when you dismiss posters arguments here as being influenced by racism.

/nod

And I've been really specific about who (Vagrant) I can recall being racist, and who I don't think is.

[King Taharqa]

Lol@Scot. The one poster who loves to character assasinate all the black qbs as inferior and less desirable than unproven pocket passers gets mad when people characterize him as an ordinary boring close minded bigot. Scots user title should be The Brunette Quarteback since college coaches have them better prepared to be NFL QBs. Lol

[TheRealDeal]

Mr. Scot,

Are you saying most black college QB's don't get labeled as running QB's? Do they get credit for being smart or just athletic? Most of the knocks I've seen on Cam and alot of young black QB's is they can't read defenses or they can't understand the difficult play books and blah blah. Thats coming from scouts, GM's posters whoever....seems to be the same thing over and over. Thats got to have a hint of racism to it....even if it's just a little bit.

Not when it's widely known that the player was told specifically, "If your first read is not open, run"

In that type of offense, you don't learn to make reads and progressions so the questions are very valid.

Are you going to ignore the facts and stick to the conspiracy?

[Mr. Scot]

Why? So you can ignore it again?

Only the fact I've witnessed it first hand, and other NFL players have mentioned seeing it, and it's reared its head on this forum.

How is it a "personal attack" to say I see something wrong on a sociological level?

IF YOU are perceiving it as a personal attack, that's your problem.

AGAIN... I am NOT KT.

In other words, you're not going to link it. I looked back at the thread after the discussion and didn't see "several people" defending it. That's why I said show me.

And the "subtle racism" thing is essentially saying "I'm going to call (poster X) a racist even though I can't actually show where he's said anything racist". And yes, that's a personal attack. It doesn't matter who it's directed at.

Either show where someone said something racist, or don't call them racist, subtly racist, hidden racist, closet racist, or anything else. When you do that, it says more about you than it does about them.

[mav1234]

A lot of the knocks on QBs from spread offenses is that they don't get experience reading defenses (primarily pre-snap).

I have not seen anyone say that Cam Newton can not understand difficult playbooks, just that the offense he ran was geared as a single read-and-run, which is not to say he can't do any differently.

It sounds like you are referring to Vince Young, where it was widely reported that offenses were simplified to take advantage of his athletic ability and minimize some other aspects.

I don't think Josh Freeman was ever pigeonholed as a purely running QB, and I don't know that anyone ever questioned his intelligence. His ability to make reads was questioned just as much as any spread offense QB though I don't recall the specifics well right now, I can check them when I get home.

[CarolinaKat]

If were going to ask his former coach why not ask his dad as well?

Was I suppose to take that question seriously?

I haven't heard what scouts and GMs have said about his ability to be taught

I'll take that as you don't know then. Just like you don't know if his foot work will get better, just like you don't know that he won't be a good nfl QB. The main point is you don't know. Don't speak like what your saying is a fact when it's just your opinion. Only thing you have to rely on is what other people have said, whatever their reason for saying it.

[blackcatgrowl]

In other words, you're not going to link it. I looked back at the thread after the discussion and didn't see "several people" defending it. That's why I said show me.

<shrug> Read closer?

And the "subtle racism" thing is essentially saying "I'm going to call (poster X) a racist even though I can't actually show where he's said anything racist". And yes, that's a personal attack. It doesn't matter who it's directed at.

roflmao... Saying I see subtle racism is the same thing as a personal attack?

That's some great logic there buddy.

Either show where someone said something racist, or don't call them racist, subtly racist, hidden racist, closet racist, or anything else. When you do that, it says more about you than it does about them.

I did. You're continuing to ignore it. See my "Official Statement" for clarification.

[Mr. Scot]

Mr. Scot,

Are you saying most black college QB's don't get labeled as running QB's? Do they get credit for being smart or just athletic? Most of the knocks I've seen on Cam and alot of young black QB's is they can't read defenses or they can't understand the difficult play books and blah blah. Thats coming from scouts, GM's posters whoever....seems to be the same thing over and over. Thats got to have a hint of racism to it....even if it's just a little bit.

It doesn't just happen to black quarterbacks, but it happens to more of them than it does white quarterbacks.

Previously posted here: http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2941098&postcount=170

It's because their college coaches teach them to be one-read-and-run quarterbacks like Newton rather than training them to be pocket passers like Warren Moon.

It happens to white quarterbacks too (Eric Crouch was a prime example) but more often affects black quarterbacks because there's a higher percentage that fit into the athletic quarterback mold.

The problem is that the one-read-and-run model works at the college level if you have a superior athlete. Unfortunately, it doesn't translate well to the pros, and thus the players who are taught that way wind up either as 2-3 year projects, position switches or total busts.

It's a disservice to the player, but a college coach's job isn't to prepare guys for NFL careers. It's to win games. For that reason, it's pretty tough to get them to go away from something that, at least for them, works.

Only two college coaches that I know of have broken that trend. Ohio State's Jim Tressel and WVU's Bill Stewart (who'll be replaced after next season) have taken athletic black quarterbacks and tried to train them to be pocket passers. The results are mixed. Troy Smith had some success but has been limited by perceived attitude problems. Pat White is out of the NFL entirely, but height was a limitation for him too, and he really only had one year under Stewart anyway.

Unless more college coaches go the way of guys like Tressel and Stewart, nothing is going to change. And I'm not optimistic of that happening because, as mentioned, at the college level it works.

(similar arguments can be made about spread system QBs, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with color)

That's where the real problem is. It annoys the living daylights out of me, but what can you do?

[CarolinaKat]

I have not seen anyone say that Cam Newton can not understand difficult playbooks, just that the offense he ran was geared as a single read-and-run

Just one example but Ben Roethlisberger played in a spread offense right? I don't remember any scouts saying he couldn't read defenses or he was just a running QB.

[monstercat]

Mr. Scot,

Are you saying most black college QB's don't get labeled as running QB's? Do they get credit for being smart or just athletic? Most of the knocks I've seen on Cam and alot of young black QB's is they can't read defenses or they can't understand the difficult play books and blah blah. Thats coming from scouts, GM's posters whoever....seems to be the same thing over and over. Thats got to have a hint of racism to it....even if it's just a little bit.

You have a point there. I don't think people mean it as racism or even realize they're doing it in some cases, but there is something there. It's subtle, but it's there.

How else do you explain the fact that so many people are already convinced that Locker can be "fixed" , but Newton can't? Hell, Locker has already had 3 extra years of div. 1 coaching compared to Cam and he has only gotten worse.

[mav1234]

Just one example but Ben Roethlisberger played in a spread offense right? I don't remember any scouts saying he couldn't read defenses o he was just a running QB.

There was the "he's coming from a spread" knock for not making a ton of reads, but he demonstrated good judgement with the ball and the ability to read defenses post snap when he threw a very low percentage of interceptions over a huge number of years and was picking apart defenses very well over a number of years, not just one. Also, the idea that Big Ben wasn't a running quarterback was quite simple... it's because he ran for like a combined 500 yards in college over 3 years.

[Mr. Scot]

Just one example but Ben Roethlisberger played in a spread offense right? I don't remember any scouts saying he couldn't read defenses o he was just a running QB.

Actually, there were scouts who questioned whether he could transition from that type of offensive attack to a pro offense. It happened even more with The Golden Calf of Bristol.

Honestly, what Roethlisberger had to do early on with a fairly simplified Steeler offense likely made the transition easier. Had he gone to a team with a more complex attack, he may well have struggled.

Every quarterback, white or black, comes into the league with question marks. The notion that anyone is persecuting Newton because they're looking at his question marks is ridiculous. They scrutinize everyone.

[CarolinaKat]

It doesn't just happen to black quarterbacks, but it happens to more of them than it does white quarterbacks.

I think thats the only point people are trying to make with the racism talk. That was my only point atleast.