I have seen some compare Clausen to Aikman...

[Icege]

You ought to try out for a mod position since you want to dictate what we can and can't discuss.

Pointing out that CRA flocks to Clausen threads like flies to poo and is really not saying anything new other than he hates Clausen, he shouldn't be starting, and Rita's Shaved Ice is amazing (we can all agree on that last point at least!) is a far, far cry from "dictating" what people can and can't discuss.

That would require people to actually discuss something here as opposed to being a message board for fans to have emotional breakdowns over whether or not they can tell the future.

[Cyberjag]

by NFL standards it isn't. at best it shows a range from bad to unimpressive. Clausen consistantly didn't provide much production.

Not going by just yards. Also going by TDs. On a rare day Clausen could hit a wideopen player (who wasn't a WR).

On a rare day Aikman threw for almost 400 yards. One a rare day Aikman threw for 4 TDs. That is good play mixed into the bad. Jimmy didn't have one day anyone can point to where he showed off his potential. Jimmy was consistant.

For just about every rookie QB who had gotten legit playing time there is a game you can point to (normally a couple).......you can't point to a single one w/ Clausen. That is what I find scary when people talk about him going forward.

Well yeah, you said all that already, multiple times. Got something new?

I said Clausen was more consistent than Aikman, not that he was better. And I didn't say that he ever threw for more yards. He had the most statistically impressive day, but that isn't saying a ton because frankly, both of them stunk all year.

What I wondered aloud was whether his numbers, which seemed like they were low in general, were not just a product of a bad rookie season but also a product of instructions on the coaching staff. He didn't throw interceptions like you would expect someone to who was having such a bad year, he actually took better care of the ball than several veterans (sorry I didn't get into that), and his turnovers improved as the season went on (not sorry that I didn't get into that). But he never seemed to turn it loose, like he did in college, so I kind of thought that it was either because of the speed of the game or coaching.

I'm happy that someone who actually talks to players weighed in and gave an answer.

Go ahead and tell us how bad he was again, this is now an official "Jimmy Hate" thread, just like all the others.

[panthers55]

Why does it seem like those who are calling Clausen a bust *want* him to be a bust?

I'm curious about something else too. I've looked over Clausen's stats and Aikman's, and there are a lot of similarities. They were both up and down, Aikman threw more TDs but threw way more INTs and did so at a higher rate, and Aikman averaged two more attempts and about 30 more yards a game in games where they played the entire game. Aikman also averaged a half yard per attempt more than Clausen. They were both equal as far as accuracy is concerned.

Now, I'm NOT saying Clausen will become another Aikman. But he may develop into something good--obviously it's happened before. What I AM saying is that history shows us it's probably premature to give up on a player based on a bad rookie season.

And I have a question for the board. When I was looking at Clausen's stats in comparison to Aikman's, what jumped out is how consistent Clausen was. Aikman was hot or cold, and although Clausen had the best game out of both QBs, Aikman had more "good" games than Clausen (and way more God-awful bad ones). Clausen just looked more consistent.

When you put the whole consistent thing together with the production (or lack, depending on whether you're a hater or not), and then compare Jimmy Johnson and John Fox, does it make any sense to pin some of the production on the coaching staff? What was emphasized to Jimmy? Was he told to take chances, or to throw the ball away at the first sign of trouble? And if he was, do you think his stats would be worse or better if he had been given a little more freedom?

I surely hope Clausen turns into something given we are paying him for 4 years, he is a second rounder, and we might be stuck with him whether we like it or not.

Clausen was consistent. He consistently avoiding throwing downfield, he consistently went to the short pass and dump off and he consistently did not throw into coverage whether it was single or double coverage. That will result in passer ratings in the 50s to 70s but won't move the ball consistently, won't score points, and won't result in sustained drives or TDs.

Is passer rating the kind of consistency we want or is sustained drives and consistency moving the ball.

The whole passer rating debate misses the point of the discussion in my opinion and the big difference between Clausen and other quarterbacks. Clausen couldn't sustain drives, had few 4th quarter drives, couldn't move the team consistently and on too many third and fourth downs took a sack rather than throwing it away or throwing it down the field trying to make a first down.

I would agree that he was afraid to make a mistake but I am not going to blame Fox for it. Even when Clausen was told he was going to be the quarterback for the rest of the year he struggled to move the offense. And he clearly lacked understanding of down and distance. For example on 4th down you don't take a sack. You throw it away or chuck it down the field hoping for a catch or even an interception which is better than giving them field position at the point of the sack. He consistently chose a dumpoff for 3 yards when he needed 8 for a first down. And if it was the coaches decision to take no chances then why did Moore throw it downfield and Clausen didn't. Do you think that Fox told Moore he could throw it down the field but told clausen he couldn't?? Do you think that Clausen saw Moore get pulled and figured he didn't want to get pulled as well? If that is the case then what did he think when Moore was reinstated because Clausen couldn't move the offense? Why do you think he still wouldn't throw it in the last few games when he knew he was going to start and that he will be here while Fox and Davidson wouldn't.

We could on all day. But suffice it to say that the problems on offense are shared and while Clausen is not the only culprit he is a big part of it. The real debate is whether he can recover and improve. The problem is that 500 pages of debate on this message board will do nothing to settle that discussion.

My issue is that you don't put all those eggs in that basket in case it is Clausen and not the offensive system. We need someone with a better track record with demonstrated success. At this point for example people have written Moore off completely but honestly he is a much more proven quarterback compared to Clausen at this point. I am not sold on him going forward either but it is interesting how many people defend Clausen but throw Moore under the bus, when if the problem is the offense scheme, it was the issue with both of them. Don't know how you throw Moore away and tout Clausen as the future when Moore looked better and looked better coming in as a rookie and over most of his starts. I guess everyone thinks that Clausen has more upside and will improve over the next year or two. I hope they are right but fear they aren't.

[CRA]

Pointing out that CRA flocks to Clausen threads like flies to poo and is really not saying anything new other than he hates Clausen, he shouldn't be starting, and Rita's Shaved Ice is amazing (we can all agree on that last point at least!) is a far, far cry from "dictating" what people can and can't discuss.

That would require people to actually discuss something here as opposed to being a message board for fans to have emotional breakdowns over whether or not they can tell the future.

I don't hate Clausen. In fact, I am surprised how much I like the kid. I thought he would be a punk based on the stories pre draft (in fact I thought his personality would be his biggest issue).

I think Clausen handled everything extremely well this year. The bad situation, bad play, pressure, and Steve Smith. I think a lot of this attitude stuff thrown around is bogus.....even the stuff on this board. Clausen is very young and he weathered the storm pretty dang well considering everything.

I don't want any Panther to crash and burn. That is why I am so vocal about Clausen. It was clear early he shouldn't be on the field. Put him on the shelf for right now. He has a lot of basics to work on before getting put out there.

[CRA]

Well yeah, you said all that already, multiple times. Got something new?

I said Clausen was more consistent than Aikman, not that he was better. And I didn't say that he ever threw for more yards. He had the most statistically impressive day, but that isn't saying a ton because frankly, both of them stunk all year.

What I wondered aloud was whether his numbers, which seemed like they were low in general, were not just a product of a bad rookie season but also a product of instructions on the coaching staff. He didn't throw interceptions like you would expect someone to who was having such a bad year, he actually took better care of the ball than several veterans (sorry I didn't get into that), and his turnovers improved as the season went on (not sorry that I didn't get into that). But he never seemed to turn it loose, like he did in college, so I kind of thought that it was either because of the speed of the game or coaching.

I'm happy that someone who actually talks to players weighed in and gave an answer.

Go ahead and tell us how bad he was again, this is now an official "Jimmy Hate" thread, just like all the others.

Matt Moore threw downfield as a rookie. BSP had the longest pass play of the season this year. I don't think Fox, when it was time to throw, was telling Jimmy not to throw downfield. That doesn't seem to be consistant w/ Fox and other questionable QBs.......didn't seem like Smitty was aware of that plan.......and late in the season Fox was caught on camera after Jimmy "played it safe".

[Woodie]

I think what is behind the Clausen hate, is wanting Hurney to be wrong.

There are four reasons for the hate, IMO:

1) People that hated him before he was ever drafted, whether it was because he went to ND, was hyped so much, or the constant reporting of his sense of entitlement and immaturity. These are the people that were pre-determined to hate him no matter what, and they have been reveling in his struggles.

2) People that had unrealistic expectations for the rookie. Some felt Jimmy would step on the field and lead us to the promised land right out of the gate, so feel heavily let down by him. This is especially true of posters that argued over and over about how great Jimmy would be before the season started.

3) People that were trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, until they realized Andrew Luck was a real possibility. Then they wanted Jimmy to fail in order to a) get the #1 pick, and be assured of a chance at Luck and not do well enough for the FO to pass on Luck. So they had to get in the mindset of identifying every mistake or flaw in Jimmy, while ignoring anything positive.

4) Matt Moore supporters. Posters that believed in Moore and genuinely felt he could be the QB of the future, or at least a solid starter of the present. Many of these fans tend to minimize or excuse Moore's mistakes while highlighting Jimmy's. Many also felt Moore was getting the short end of the stick with Jimmy coming in, so had some built-in resentment.

[AppStatePanther]

Yeah, I was hoping for some college clips....

what you really should hope for is his future NFL clips.

[Sloth]

There are four reasons for the hate, IMO:

1) People that hated him before he was ever drafted, whether it was because he went to ND, was hyped so much, or the constant reporting of his sense of entitlement and immaturity. These are the people that were pre-determined to hate him no matter what, and they have been reveling in his struggles.

2) People that had unrealistic expectations for the rookie. Some felt Jimmy would step on the field and lead us to the promised land right out of the gate, so feel heavily let down by him. This is especially true of posters that argued over and over about how great Jimmy would be before the season started.

3) People that were trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, until they realized Andrew Luck was a real possibility. Then they wanted Jimmy to fail in order to a) get the #1 pick, and be assured of a chance at Luck and not do well enough for the FO to pass on Luck. So they had to get in the mindset of identifying every mistake or flaw in Jimmy, while ignoring anything positive.

4) Matt Moore supporters. Posters that believed in Moore and genuinely felt he could be the QB of the future, or at least a solid starter of the present. Many of these fans tend to minimize or excuse Moore's mistakes while highlighting Jimmy's. Many also felt Moore was getting the short end of the stick with Jimmy coming in, so had some built-in resentment.

5) People who watched him play, saw his demeanor, his physical limitations and his mechanics and are upset at the possibility of being locked into another bad QB with a ceiling of game manager for 3 years.

[mav1234]

5) People who watched him play, saw his demeanor, his physical limitations and his mechanics and are upset at the possibility of being locked into another bad QB with a ceiling of game manager for 3 years.

this.

I was excited about him, and I'm fine with giving him a shot in camp, but I don't expect anything out of him.

[rayzor]

5) People who watched him play, saw his demeanor, his physical limitations and his mechanics and are upset at the possibility of being locked into another bad QB with a ceiling of game manager for 3 years.

this pretty much fits my feelings.

i've said before, my initial reaction to his drafting was being pissed, but then i tried to feel good and optimistic about it and did a lot of reading about him and watching what tape i could find of his time at ND. i felt good about it until i saw him do poorly...consistently poorly week after week.

i had no belief that he would turn into a superstud over night. i know it takes time, but i was hoping to see some gowth into the role and as a player. that is what i was expecting to see as a rookie and that is what would have made me feel good about him.

i saw nothing good. i saw no growth. i expect nothing more than an at best average game manager and i want more than that. we need more than that. and we aren't even close to being guaranteed that with him.

i will go on record saying that i actually hope he turns things around, mainly because i don't want to wait another 3 or 4 years before we decide to work with another QB. i don't want to wait for another couple years after that to see if the next one is worth a crap. i don't want us to sit on our collective asses hoping that another coaching staff will be able to do something with him, wathcing the playoffs come and go from the outside.

i hope he succeeds because we really have no other alternatives at this point, but from what i have seen i'm not expecting much.

i will say that what i saw this year was nothing like what i saw from ND. he also did really bad his first year there and then improved dramatically each year afterwards, so there is that hope. i'm just not counting on it and neither should the team. they should keep actively looking. he has done nothing to show that if a better prospect becomes available that we should pass up on them.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

Woops, I thought they were comparing Clausen to Clay Aiken.

My bad.

[rayzor]

Woops, I thought they were comparing Clausen to Clay Aiken.

My bad.

might actually be a better comparison.

[Porn Shop Clerk]

They could be brothers.

[Woodie]

5) People who watched him play, saw his demeanor, his physical limitations and his mechanics and are upset at the possibility of being locked into another bad QB with a ceiling of game manager for 3 years.

Not really, that's a reason to have doubts, not hate. I don't think anyone will question that he did not show much, but the hate towards him is unwarranted and premature.

And most of those that use his play as an excuse to hate also fall into one of the other categories...even though they will deny it until the end of time.