A Season in Review: OLine Myth

[Urrymonster]

A couple of people are thinking I am blaming the QB play completely, which I just want to point out that I am not.

Moore and Clausen both suffered from the came issues pre-snap and we were rarely in the right set for any complex looking scheme. However to think that this is something the QBs will have a problem with their entire careers is not the case. If they had a wily vet at centre rather than a guy entering his 4th year, a lot of the pressure would have been taken off the QB. As it was, we had inexperience being led by inexperience, which was a sure fire route to poor results.

The unit & Clausen improved as the season went on which shows that nothing can replace some game experience, which is why I do not think you want to blow the whole line up.

Also for the record, the pre-snap recognition is one of the things almost all QBs will get better with (some moreso obviously), so the thought is, even with an unchanged OLine and QB the results 'should' be a lot better.

[Ricky Spanish]

looks like wharton, from a pass protection standpoint, was our best o-lineman. he played half as many snaps as the other guys, but multiply those stats by 2 and all his numbers would still be lower than the other guys.

he only would have given up 2 sacks, 6 hits and 10 pressures.

[rubberpantz]

i saw virtually no progression from Pickles through ten plus games. did he have happy feet at the end of the season? yes. did he continue to throw balls into the outstretched arms of d linemen? yes. did he lock on to his first read and then run for his life when that was covered only to throw it out of bounds? yes.

i could go on. it's true, i'm the president of the, "Pickles is the worst QB i've ever seen" club and maybe i'm seeing what i want to see but i didn't miss a snap all season and simply didn't find one redeeming quality from this kid. SS has had issues with him from all the way back in the OTAs, the Bears said he looked like he was going to poo the bed on every play, he apologizes to the defense for his shitty play (who does this?), he's a pretentious egotistical douche, and he looks like an emu.

we could have the best online ever assembled and Pickles would still suck and not be able to hit an open receiver or run the offense competently.

[Urrymonster]

looks like wharton, from a pass protection standpoint, was our best o-lineman. he played half as many snaps as the other guys, but multiply those stats by 2 and all his numbers would still be lower than the other guys.

he only would have given up 2 sacks, 6 hits and 10 pressures.

He was and it wasn't just the lack of sacks, hits & pressures he gave up as he routinely owned whoever he went up against.

Unfortunately as good as he was in pass protection, he was as bad in the run game.

Opponent - ypc to left - ypc to right (attempts left - attempts right)

NYG - 9.5 - 1.5 (3 - 2)

T.B - 3.0 - 1.0 (4 - 3)

CIN - 4.3 - 4.0 (4 - 1)

N.O - 6.0 - 1.0 (1 - 3)

CHI - 9.3 - 0.0 (3 - 0)

S.F - 7.0 - 2.3 (2 - 3)

STL - 3.0 - -0.5 (3 - 2)

N.O - 1.0 - 4.5 (1 - 2)

T.B - 4.3 - 1.0 (4 - 1)

To the left of Wharton = 5.3 ypc

To the right of Wharton = 1.7 ypc

To either side = 3.8 ypc

Almost all the yards to the left of him came from one one bit run per game...

[Urrymonster]

i saw virtually no progression from Pickles through ten plus games. did he have happy feet at the end of the season? yes. did he continue to throw balls into the outstretched arms of d linemen? yes. did he lock on to his first read and then run for his life when that was covered only to throw it out of bounds? yes.

i could go on. it's true, i'm the president of the, "Pickles is the worst QB i've ever seen" club and maybe i'm seeing what i want to see but i didn't miss a snap all season and simply didn't find one redeeming quality from this kid. SS has had issues with him from all the way back in the OTAs, the Bears said he looked like he was going to poo the bed on every play, he apologizes to the defense for his shitty play (who does this?), he's a pretentious egotistical douche, and he looks like an emu.

we could have the best online ever assembled and Pickles would still suck and not be able to hit an open receiver or run the offense competently.

Whoopee and thanks for sharing

I for one am a bit bored of the Pickles hate club, just leave it to one of the million threads already created for bashing him. This thread is to dispel some of the concern over our OLine, as it wasn't as bad as the overall stats show. However they did still struggle in the run game.

With regard to this entire thread, Moore and Clausen struggled in exactly the same regard. Clausen was only credited for being responsible for 3 sacks and 2 pressures through the season, which is actually not that bad. Sure he moved in the pocket a lot, but that usually didn't result in anything either way. Compare that to Bradford who was credited for 7 sacks...

[davos]

He was and it wasn't just the lack of sacks, hits & pressures he gave up as he routinely owned whoever he went up against.

Unfortunately as good as he was in pass protection, he was as bad in the run game.

Opponent - ypc to left - ypc to right (attempts left - attempts right)

NYG - 9.5 - 1.5 (3 - 2)

T.B - 3.0 - 1.0 (4 - 3)

CIN - 4.3 - 4.0 (4 - 1)

N.O - 6.0 - 1.0 (1 - 3)

CHI - 9.3 - 0.0 (3 - 0)

S.F - 7.0 - 2.3 (2 - 3)

STL - 3.0 - -0.5 (3 - 2)

N.O - 1.0 - 4.5 (1 - 2)

T.B - 4.3 - 1.0 (4 - 1)

To the left of Wharton = 5.3 ypc

To the right of Wharton = 1.7 ypc

To either side = 3.8 ypc

Almost all the yards to the left of him came from one one bit run per game...

That's what some people over the years have mentioned as Wharton's weakness. When you have a run first, run second mentality though, it puts his type of lineman in a tricky situation. Under new coaching and a new offensive playbook, he could become one of the best o-lineman.

It will no doubt be interesting to see what happens with the line, who is there next year, and how they play under new coaching

[theyhateme45]

Excellent post that gave facts or valid reasonings for your opinions. I do agree with most of what you said.

I also think there were 2 more factors that contributed to the number of sacks.

1) We were usually behind in games and not close. Win this happens the defense can pin their ears back and pass the qb play after play after play. The defense didn't have to worry about protecting running lanes and could just get after the QB.

2) This is the biggest reason I found when I was able to go back and re watch our games on TiVo. Jimmy C. Pocket presence. If the pocket collapses just a little he panics, his eyes usually drops from downfield and tries to scrabble away. Usually that doesn't work and he gets sacked. Sometimes he's able to roll out and then get his head back up and pass it to someone down the field. Now if you want Aaron Rodgers or other qb's who are under pressure often they understand the 4 routes to escape the pocket AND they still keep their eyes down the field. So where as our QB would get sack, in the same situation GB's QB makes a play down the field on the same pressure.

[rubberpantz]

Whoopee and thanks for sharing

I for one am a bit bored of the Pickles hate club, just leave it to one of the million threads already created for bashing him. This thread is to dispel some of the concern over our OLine, as it wasn't as bad as the overall stats show. However they did still struggle in the run game.

With regard to this entire thread, Moore and Clausen struggled in exactly the same regard. Clausen was only credited for being responsible for 3 sacks and 2 pressures through the season, which is actually not that bad. Sure he moved in the pocket a lot, but that usually didn't result in anything either way. Compare that to Bradford who was credited for 7 sacks...

i dont think they struggled with the run game much at all throughout the second half of the season.

also, in comparing Pickles to Bradford, i'd like to know how many pass plays were attempted respectively to qualify those sack numbers. if Pickles was sacked 3 times in 60% fewer games for instance where the panthers were going, run-run-pass-punt, he would obviously have a LOT fewer chances to get sacked, thus his, "sacks per passing plays attempted" would be much higher.

just curious. and sorry to quasi-hijack your thread as that was not my intention. i am in agreement with you that the line didn't perform as badly as many would like to believe and think you make a compelling argument.

[Urrymonster]

i dont think they struggled with the run game much at all throughout the second half of the season.

I think overall it looks like we struggled, but individuals excelled and our running backs (especially Stew) made the most of what they were given.

also, in comparing Pickles to Bradford, i'd like to know how many pass plays were attempted respectively to qualify those sack numbers. if Pickles was sacked 3 times in 60% fewer games for instance where the panthers were going, run-run-pass-punt, he would obviously have a LOT fewer chances to get sacked, thus his, "sacks per passing plays attempted" would be much higher.

Clausen - 360 Passing plays

Bradford - 672 Passing plays

So Clausen played 53% of Bradford's snaps, if you multiply Clausen's numbers by the missing snaps you get 5.6 sacks and 3.7 pressures.

just curious. and sorry to quasi-hijack your thread as that was not my intention. i am in agreement with you that the line didn't perform as badly as many would like to believe and think you make a compelling argument.

Hey it's discussion, no problem with posting about that!

This board has so little discussion these days it's actually a bit sad. Everything just descends into Jimmy bashing or Cam Newton love affairs, where everyone is so rigid in their beliefs it almost always results in one liners in an attempt to belittle whoever disagrees.

So bring on anyone who wants to poke holes in what I have written and we can at least look at things objectively!

[Cyberjag]

lol personally I dont give a Sh.. who you blame it on. Oline needs to be blown up. Keep Gross, Otah, and maybe Kalil, everything else needs to be replaced. Carolina needs a big body Oline.

You want to replace Wharton and Schwartz? Wharton is one of our best linemen, and when Schwartz moved to guard the running game immediately improved. You're talking about two guys who can play both tackle and guard, and be effective.

How about waiting and seeing how a line of Gross, Wharton, Kalil, Schwartz, and Otah looks? I suspect it will be at least as good as 2008, if not better.

i saw virtually no progression from Pickles through ten plus games. did he have happy feet at the end of the season? yes. did he continue to throw balls into the outstretched arms of d linemen? yes. did he lock on to his first read and then run for his life when that was covered only to throw it out of bounds? yes.

i could go on. it's true, i'm the president of the, "Pickles is the worst QB i've ever seen" club and maybe i'm seeing what i want to see but i didn't miss a snap all season and simply didn't find one redeeming quality from this kid. SS has had issues with him from all the way back in the OTAs, the Bears said he looked like he was going to poo the bed on every play, he apologizes to the defense for his shitty play (who does this?), he's a pretentious egotistical douche, and he looks like an emu.

we could have the best online ever assembled and Pickles would still suck and not be able to hit an open receiver or run the offense competently.

You're seeing what you want to see.

Clausen was a rookie QB playing with rookie WRs in an offense that was predictable and unimaginative. The line play was inconsistent for most of the season, and that's a unit where mistakes are magnified and one guy can make five look bad.

Our offensive problems can't be hung on the QB, nor can they be stuck on the line or the WRs. This past season, the suckage on that side of the ball was a team effort.

[rubberpantz]

You're seeing what you want to see.

Clausen was a rookie QB playing with rookie WRs in an offense that was predictable and unimaginative. The line play was inconsistent for most of the season, and that's a unit where mistakes are magnified and one guy can make five look bad.

Our offensive problems can't be hung on the QB, nor can they be stuck on the line or the WRs. This past season, the suckage on that side of the ball was a team effort.

bradford was also a rookie and who the hell was he throwing to? i'm guessing (because i'm entirely too lazy to look it up) that the rams had more consistency along their Oline and also have a stud RB, but bradford is light years ahead of pickles.

fumbled snaps, bad handoffs, batted passes, throwing the ball out of bounds, locking on to a receiver...all these things i saw out of pickles in ten games than i've seen out of all the other panther's qbs combined over the last five years.

[Urrymonster]

bradford was also a rookie and who the hell was he throwing to? i'm guessing (because i'm entirely too lazy to look it up) that the rams had more consistency along their Oline and also have a stud RB, but bradford is light years ahead of pickles.

fumbled snaps, bad handoffs, batted passes, throwing the ball out of bounds, locking on to a receiver...all these things i saw out of pickles in ten games than i've seen out of all the other panther's qbs combined over the last five years.

Again, focus on the topic. You hate Clausen, we get it, so do a lot of people yet they do not feel the need to derail a thread which really has little to do with him.

So, once again, get over it and actually think about what is being discussed.

[rubberpantz]

Again, focus on the topic. You hate Clausen, we get it, so do a lot of people yet they do not feel the need to derail a thread which really has little to do with him.

So, once again, get over it and actually think about what is being discussed.

relax, i'm just responding to cyberjag. and this thread does in a way have to do with him. his open sewer performance(s) this year made everyone around him look bad. from RBs, oline and even the defense. yes, the oline had issues but the team's albatross by far, was the qb position.

[Urrymonster]

relax, i'm just responding to cyberjag. and this thread does in a way have to do with him. his open sewer performance(s) this year made everyone around him look bad. from RBs, oline and even the defense. yes, the oline had issues but the team's albatross by far, was the qb position.

You are completely over looking the fact that Clausen and Moore performed pretty much exactly the same in this regard. Both need the experience and ability to pick up blitzes pre-snap and adjust accordingly.

It might surprise you but this is the sort of things rookies can't do across the board, which is why blitzing them is always so successful. Clausen WILL improve in this area, so you are essentially trashing him on this subject simply because he is a rookie.

Bravo for that.