Justify why Cam Newton isn't worth #1 overall?

[TheRealDeal]

Everyone missed the point on the Hawaii QBs I guess. It doesn't matter what you do in college, the only thing that matters is what you bring to the next level. He could go 50-0 with 99% completion percentage but if he can't throw the ball downfield or take a drop then he's worthless to me (exaggerated example I know).

The number of 40 yard passes he hit in stride while threading the needle on the run I'm sure can be counted on one hand.

The times he threw quick easy passes with one or NO reads at all can also be counted on one hand, per drive.

You say you know he can do this stuff with his footwork and his progressions but you haven't seen it so you are just assuming. I never said he couldn't but I said it's a concern a GM would have to consider.

That also makes him a project and not worth the #1 pick.

[PantherFanForLife]

Everyone missed the point on the Hawaii QBs I guess. It doesn't matter what you do in college, the only thing that matters is what you bring to the next level. He could go 50-0 with 99% completion percentage but if he can't throw the ball downfield or take a drop then he's worthless to me (exaggerated example I know).

The number of 40 yard passes he hit in stride while threading the needle on the run I'm sure can be counted on one hand.

The times he threw quick easy passes with one or NO reads at all can also be counted on one hand, per drive.

You say you know he can do this stuff with his footwork and his progressions but you haven't seen it so you are just assuming. I never said he couldn't but I said it's a concern a GM would have to consider.

That also makes him a project and not worth the #1 pick.

It's mind boggling how many STILL don't get this after last season.

[blackcatgrowl]

I said you look at the skill set, not the performances.

Colt Brennan and Timmy Change also put up insane numbers. They don't have the skill set to be NFL QBs. I also never said Cam would suck, I said I wasn't sold yet. The SEC is overrated this year and there are plenty of numbers to prove it. I'm not discrediting his college achievments but they are in no way an indicator of NFL success. Chris Leak was beast mode in college.

I'm not saying it is, but to say you don't evaluate players as NFL prospects based on their college play is horseshit. You absolutely do.

The bottom line is you have to look at the skill set the player has, and how that will translate to the NFL.

You can't possibly know what that will be!!! Hell, scouts and GM's don't know often. Doesn't mean you don't take a chance on talent when it comes your way.

I see that he has accuracy issues but his numbers are aided by easy throws.

Ok... show me... show me some videos where his receivers are stretching to make completions. Please... back up this claim. The stats and videos I've produced refute this point blank.

You see 70% completions and say he must be accurate. I say he has lazy feet. You don't comment.

I didn't comment because this is borderline absurd. You can't run a spread offense and have "lazy feet". He plants and throws when he has an open receiver. He scrambles when he gets pressure.

I say he is in a one read offense. You show me a highlight tape that proves my point then say I'm wrong.

I showed you a video where he is making reads and you say "LOL, no he isn't", even though he threw AGAINST THE GRAIN after looking down field, down by a touchdown, in the red zone. You ASSUME that was how the play was designed, but that's just that... ridiculous assumption. Were you looking at the playbook when they called it in?

GMs don't care about college accomplishments. They want to know what you are bringing to the table in the NFL and what Cam is bringing is very very raw with a potentially high ceiling. If we could move down to the middle or later part of the first round he might be worth it. At #1, it could be the biggest reach in recent memory.

The hell they don't. Here are Hurney's comments on Jimmy Clausen. FF to 2:52. He is talking about Jimmy's experience in college with an offense, and his "play at a high level".

I really don't get how you are making these assumptions about the draft technique of NFL teams.

[TheRealDeal]

You honestly don't think that play was a designed roll out to the right and throwback left?

Answer that before I bother responding to anything else you are saying.

Also, look at his feet on the throw on 4th and 3. Just focus on his feet. If the words lazy and/or slow don't come to mind I don't know what does.

Answer those two questions before I respond to see if you are mentally capable of having this discussion with me.

[panthers55]

Everyone missed the point on the Hawaii QBs I guess. It doesn't matter what you do in college, the only thing that matters is what you bring to the next level. He could go 50-0 with 99% completion percentage but if he can't throw the ball downfield or take a drop then he's worthless to me (exaggerated example I know).

The number of 40 yard passes he hit in stride while threading the needle on the run I'm sure can be counted on one hand.

The times he threw quick easy passes with one or NO reads at all can also be counted on one hand, per drive.

You say you know he can do this stuff with his footwork and his progressions but you haven't seen it so you are just assuming. I never said he couldn't but I said it's a concern a GM would have to consider.

That also makes him a project and not worth the #1 pick.

No I got the point about the Hawaii quarterbacks and said so. As for newton he can throw downfield very well. I would say his passing ability is better than Luck. Obvious his football knowledge isn't close but from a passing point of view, he is more physically talented which is the point in throwing downfield. As for his footwork and progressions, I didn't say he would be fine, I said he would need work but hasn't been in a system where that is stressed. Can he learn it? I would hope that whoever is prepping him for the combine works that quite a bit and teams that work him out challenge him in those areas. That is what the combine and personal workouts are for.

No doubt he is a project but his upside may very make him worth the number 1 pick. On the other hand he isn't the only guy out there if we even decide to go QB in the first which isn't guaranteed at all at this point.

[TheRealDeal]

Lol. I didn't even watch the whole video the first time and at the end of the video they are talking about the play design.

When the tight end blocks for a second then sneaks across the field like that, the ball is designed to go to him. I can't believe you are even arguing that.

I came for a battle of wits but I can clearly see you are unarmed.

[TheRealDeal]

No I got the point about the Hawaii quarterbacks and said so. As for newton he can throw downfield very well. I would say his passing ability is better than Luck. Obvious his football knowledge isn't close but from a passing point of view, he is more physically talented which is the point in throwing downfield. As for his footwork and progressions, I didn't say he would be fine, I said he would need work but hasn't been in a system where that is stressed. Can he learn it? I would hope that whoever is prepping him for the combine works that quite a bit and teams that work him out challenge him in those areas. That is what the combine and personal workouts are for.

No doubt he is a project but his upside may very make him worth the number 1 pick. On the other hand he isn't the only guy out there if we even decide to go QB in the first which isn't guaranteed at all at this point.

I don't think he's even close to Luck when it comes to pure passing or throwing downfield.

The point of my posts wasn't to say he'll suck in the NFL. The point was to bring up points of discussion as to why he wouldn't be drafted #1 overall. He isn't a flawless player. In fact, I'd say he has more concerns going to the NFL right now than he does positives. He'd be a major risk at #1 for many reasons.

In the end, I don't think we end up taking a QB at all and I think Locker might get back into the top 2 QBs by the time everything is said and done.

[panthers55]

I came for a battle of wits but I can clearly see you are unarmed.

Interesting way of looking at it. I thought this was a message board to exchange ideas, learn about players and discuss points of view. I didn't realize it was a battle to win or lose complete with insults and attacks. I know it happens I just didn't think it was the point of the board.

This explains alot...............

[blackcatgrowl]

You honestly don't think that play was a designed roll out to the right and throwback left?

Answer that before I bother responding to anything else you are saying.

No, you answer me this question before we continue:

Does a coach who has taken his team to the BCS title game, won SEC championship in a dominant fashion, call in a pass play to throw against the grain, when they are down by a TD in the 4th quarter, sitting in the Red Zone, against a tough division opponent?

Anything but a no, and you're obviously on another football planet, because that defies all established norms of football sense to do so.

Also, look at his feet on the throw on 4th and 3. Just focus on his feet. If the words lazy and/or slow don't come to mind I don't know what does.

Ok, what about the other, oh, 10 plays in that drive. Like I said, you can look at a ONE pick from Tom Brady and say he has bad mechanics or makes bad reads. Your just f**king nitpicking at that point.

Answer those two questions before I respond to see if you are mentally capable of having this discussion with me.

Almost every point you've made is assumption and assertion. You're parading your take on him and his mechanics is correct and if no one agrees with you, then they don't know what they're talking about. I guess you're right, there isn't a point in continuing.

[TheRealDeal]

Interesting way of looking at it. I thought this was a message board to exchange ideas, learn about players and discuss points of view. I didn't realize it was a battle to win or lose complete with insults and attacks. I know it happens I just didn't think it was the point of the board.

This explains alot...............

There is plenty of room for opinions. When you tell me grass isn't green that's not an opinion. There are certain things to be wrong on. That wasn't aimed at you, you are having legit discussion. Blackcat is way off on his "opinions" and it's to the point where you can't discuss it.

[panthers55]

I don't think he's even close to Luck when it comes to pure passing or throwing downfield.

The point of my posts wasn't to say he'll suck in the NFL. The point was to bring up points of discussion as to why he wouldn't be drafted #1 overall. He isn't a flawless player. In fact, I'd say he has more concerns going to the NFL right now than he does positives. He'd be a major risk at #1 for many reasons.

In the end, I don't think we end up taking a QB at all and I think Locker might get back into the top 2 QBs by the time everything is said and done.

You are wrong IMO about Luck versus Newton from a physical point of view. What makes Luck special is his knowledge of the game and desire to be the best. He is not the best physical passer this year by far.

As for will Newton be a number 1 pick, that remains to be seen. I am going to keep my mind open to see what happens as each guy gets put under a microscope. It should make for an interesting time. At this point he hasn't even declared for the draft. I would hope you would keep an open mind as well although that doesn't seem your style. Way too much time left in my opinion to make absolute proclamations for or against at this juncture.

[blackcatgrowl]

There is plenty of room for opinions. When you tell me grass isn't green that's not an opinion. There are certain things to be wrong on. That wasn't aimed at you, you are having legit discussion. Blackcat is way off on his "opinions" and it's to the point where you can't discuss it.

Yeah, I'm so off, I've produced several highlight videos showing him playing in a dominant fashion against tough teams.

While all you've got is "Look, look, he didn't scramble fast enough for me on one play!"

[panthers55]

There is plenty of room for opinions. When you tell me grass isn't green that's not an opinion. There are certain things to be wrong on. That wasn't aimed at you, you are having legit discussion. Blackcat is way off on his "opinions" and it's to the point where you can't discuss it.

So is kentucky bluegrass- green or blue??? If Bermuda grass is brown in the winter and green in the summer- is it green or brown??

Is anything really certain???

[TheRealDeal]

No, you answer me this question before we continue:

Does a coach who has taken his team to the BCS title game, won SEC championship in a dominant fashion, call in a pass play to throw against the grain, when they are down by a TD in the 4th quarter, sitting in the Red Zone, against a tough division opponent?

Anything but a no, and you're obviously on another football planet, because that defies all established norms of football sense to do so.

That play is called all the time. It's a very common play at all levels of football. Like I said, see the TD pass Whitehurst threw in their play your way in game against St. Louis.