Justify why Cam Newton isn't worth #1 overall?

[blackcatgrowl]

All this bullshit about "systems" and "spread offenses" is just that. A bunch of bullshit.

A good player can come out and play in an offense that he practices to play in.

You know who was considered "Pro Ready" because he played in a "Pro offense"? Jimmy Clausen. Yeah, that worked out well.

You either have talent to play this game or you don't. I'm seeing talent in Newton unlike anything we've seen for awhile (if ever).

[Mr. Scot]

All this bullshit about "systems" and "spread offenses" is just that. A bunch of bullshit.

A good player can come out and play in an offense that he practices to play in.

You know was considered "Pro Ready" because he played in a "Pro offense"? Jimmy Clausen. Yeah, that worked out well.

You either have talent to play this game or you don't. I'm seeing talent in Newton unlike anything we've seen for awhile (if ever).

Talent alone isn't enough.

And if you think system has nothing to do with it, why is it guys from certain systems - like for example, Jeff Tedford's, Steve Spurrier's or June Jones' - never make it in the NFL?

(and hint, the guys I just mentioned have had primarily white products)

Pro-style offense doesn't guarantee success, but it helps (a lot).

As I said, it's very difficult to make it in the pros. Lots of guys fail for various reasons. Race isn't one of them.

[pantherj]

All this bullshit about "systems" and "spread offenses" is just that. A bunch of bullshit.

A good player can come out and play in an offense that he practices to play in.

You know was considered "Pro Ready" because he played in a "Pro offense"? Jimmy Clausen. Yeah, that worked out well.

You either have talent to play this game or you don't. I'm seeing talent in Newton unlike anything we've seen for awhile (if ever).

Clausen is shockingly bad, and I dunno if that can be 'fixed'. Cam is my pick, and I think it bacame an easy pick the moment Luck dropped out. Cam has the arm to make all the pro throws, and he's incredible on the move. The question is can he read a pro defense and make a quick and correct decision on a consistant basis. We don't know. It's impossible to predict with QB.

[X-Clown]

I would have the same criticism if we were thinking about drafting a white running back first overall. Or a white defensive back. When you have certain races that typically play better at certain positions, it's best to stick to that ideology because it's the formula that works.

I could have sworn that I watched a white running back completely dominate our defense in a game this year, with 3TDs in a half. This white running back was traded for a prototypical white quarterback who was drafted in the first round a few years ago and that qb was third string on a 3-13 team. I'm glad the caste system that you mention above always rings true.

[runyon27]

All this bullshit about "systems" and "spread offenses" is just that. A bunch of bullshit.

A good player can come out and play in an offense that he practices to play in.

You know was considered "Pro Ready" because he played in a "Pro offense"? Jimmy Clausen. Yeah, that worked out well.

You either have talent to play this game or you don't. I'm seeing talent in Newton unlike anything we've seen for awhile (if ever).

Ummm this is quite an overboard statement. He isn't the 2nd coming. He is so good, that they run the ball most of the time? I haven't see anything in the few games I have seen Newton play this year that make me think he is anywhere near the level of praise you are heaping on him. I don't care how well he scrambles, how hard he is to tackle, or how strong his arm may or may not be. He has to be accurate, has to be able to read defenses, not just defensive linemen, and handle the pressure of being a pro.

[Snake]

Talent alone isn't enough.

And if you think system has nothing to do with it, why is it guys from certain systems - like for example, Jeff Tedford's, Steve Spurrier's or June Jones' - never make it in the NFL?

(and hint, the guys I just mentioned have had primarily white products)

Pro-style offense doesn't guarantee success, but it helps (a lot).

As I said, it's very difficult to make it in the pros. Lots of guys fail for various reasons. Race isn't one of them.

Rex Grossman can be argued lightly. If he was not made of glass he might be a game manager. Injuries have hampered him not the system.

[runyon27]

Clausen is shockingly bad, and I dunno if that can be 'fixed'. Cam is my pick, and I think it bacame an easy pick the moment Luck dropped out. Cam has the arm to make all the pro throws, and he's incredible on the move. The question is can he read a pro defense and make a quick and correct decision on a consistant basis. We don't know. It's impossible to predict with QB.

And the problem with Cam is you have so little game tape of him having to read a defense, thats why making him the #1 pick is so difficult to do and thats why he probably won't get drafted until the mid to late first round. Too many questions you cant find answers for in game tape.

[Snake]

spread offense doesn't work in the NFL.

/thread

No one ever said it did in the NFL... :aureola:

[blackcatgrowl]

Talent alone isn't enough.

And if you think system has nothing to do with it, why is it guys from certain systems - like for example, Jeff Tedford's, Steve Spurrier's or June Jones' - never make it in the NFL?

(and hint, the guys I just mentioned have had primarily white products)

Pro-style offense doesn't guarantee success, but it helps (a lot).

As I said, it's very difficult to make it in the pros. Lots of guys fail for various reasons. Race isn't one of them.

So what happened to Clausen?

[Snake]

So what happened to Clausen?

Bingo... Nothing is a sure pick and The Golden Calf of Bristol seems to be developing. Still with Newton the jury is still out on if he can read and progress threw more then one WR. The Spread dose not help his chances at all. One of the worst things to ever happen to collage ball. Im not sure what we do now that Luck has told us to go fug ourselves.

[Mr. Scot]

So what happened to Clausen?

As much as anything else, a poor system fit, bad coaching and having to play too soon.

Clausen's skill set is way better suited to a West Coast attack. Some guys are. Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Garcia and Donovan McNabb are examples. Put Clausen in that system and he might be a lot better (not elite, but better).

Plus the same QB coach that essentially undid a lot of Jake Delhomme's progress - and who had only temporary success with QBs before that - failed to correct some issues he was having (release point being a pretty big one).

And then there's the Mongolian Cluster of a season that surrounded him. None of that was his fault of course, but that doesn't really matter at this point, does it?

Clausen is a case in point that you can come into the pros with everything in the world going for you and still fail. Likewise, there are guys who come in with disadvantages and manage to overcome them, but let's be honest. Those stories are pretty rare.

The bust rate for QBs is high, and that's why teams prefer to gamble on guys with fewer issues. Character, height, system, work ethic, athleticism, whatever. For a QB coming into the league, there's as much chance you'll fail as there is that you'll succeed (some would argue more).

And again, none of that has anything to do with race.

[blackcatgrowl]

As much as anything else, a poor system fit, bad coaching and having to play too soon.

Clausen's skill set is way better suited to a West Coast attack. Some guys are. Matt Hasselbeck, Jeff Garcia and Donovan McNabb are examples. Put Clausen in that system and he might be a lot better (not elite, but better).

Plus the same QB coach that essentially undid a lot of Jake Delhomme's progress - and who had only temporary success with QBs before that - failed to correct some issues he was having (release point being a pretty big one).

And then there's the Mongolian Cluster of a season that surrounded him. None of that was his fault of course, but that doesn't really matter at this point, does it?

Clausen is a case in point that you can come into the pros with everything in the world going for you and still fail. Likewise, there are guys who come in with disadvantages and manage to overcome them, but let's be honest. Those stories are rare.

The bust rate for QBs is high, and that's why teams prefer to gamble on guys with fewer issues. Character, height, system, work ethic, athleticism, whatever. For a QB coming into the league, there's as much chance you'll fail as there is that you'll succeed 9some would argue more).

And again, none of that has anything to do with race.

Please note, I'm not discussing race in this thread, because it doesn't belong in the Panthers forum.

[Mr. Scot]

Please note, I'm not discussing race in this thread, because it doesn't belong in the Panthers forum.

Point blank, Andrew Luck is the only QB I've seen in this year's draft that I'd have no issue with taking number one.

Newton, Gabbert, Mallett, Locker...none of them have the complete package that Luck does. And if you want to use the number one overall pick on a guy, he better be the complete package. "Good enough" isn't good enough. Nobody in this draft is the equal of Luck, or even close.

They all have issues, Newton included, and not just the character thing (though that's big). There's also his mechanics, the system and questions about his ability to read defenses. Heck, the guy who runs the Sporting News draft analysis was saying he wouldn't even rate Newton as a first round pick (Russ Lande, and for the record, he's a former NFL scout).

And for the record, the Heisman's not a positive either. Heisman winners fail quite a bit (like our own Chris Weinke).

Right now, my choice for the #1 pick would be Nick Fairley. I could be convinced to accept A J Green or Patrick Peterson, but no other QB.

Ultimately, I'll support whomever the Panthers take, but there are some choices I'd feel a lot better about than others.

[blackcatgrowl]

Point blank, Andrew Luck is the only QB I've seen in this year's draft that I'd have no issue with taking number one.

Newton, Gabbert, Mallett, Locker...none of them have the complete package that Luck does. And if you want to use the number one overall pick on a guy, he better be the complete package. "Good enough" isn't good enough. Nobody in this draft is the equal of Luck, or even close.

They all have issues, Newton included, and not just the character thing (though that's big). There's also his mechanics, the system and questions about his ability to read defenses. Heck, the guy who runs the Sporting News draft analysis was saying he wouldn't even rate Newton as a first round pick (Russ Lande, and for the record, he's a former NFL scout).

Right now, my choice for the #1 pick would be Nick Fairley. I could be convinced to accept A J Green or Patrick Peterson, but no other QB.

Ultimately, I'll support whomever the Panthers take, but there are some choices I'd feel a lot better about than others.

I respect the hell out of your opinion Mr. Scot. I've repped you tons for the things you've said in the past.

But I think you're missing the boat on Newton man. Auburn didn't have a cake walk schedule and to do the things he did this year, without any Division 1 experience, is simply amazing.