Elite/Good/Game Manager(Decent)/Bad

[Liminy]

I like Bradford, I like Ryan, Flacco is good, I feel like Luck is in the pedigree of these quaterbacks. With the type of team we run and even with the beginnings of a new team that a new head coach could run, whether that be Harbaugh or whoever, This is the making of a consistent playoff team. Maybe not in the first year, maybe close in the second, but these types of QB's learn well and I feel can eventually lead a team to a Superbowl and win it.

[TheRealDeal]

Ultimately I think that is more of a flaw of that kind of model though. ;P

The flaw is in the logic that just because he played decent in a SB means he is a good QB. He had all things working for him. Most good QBs don't go out in a must win and throw 4 picks just because the run game is slowed.

My whole thing with Eli is that he so heavily depends on the run game and when that's gone he gets really exposed. You can bring up all the good you want but until he does something when the run game gets shut down then he's nothing more than a game manager.

Trent Dilfer also made some good plays in the superbowl (38 yd TD pass and 44 yd pass to set up FG) but he isn't considered anything more than a game manager. Unfair comparison I know but when you just point out two plays in a SB then you are inviting unfair comparisons

[TheRealDeal]

That's the F'n fact. You are not going 2 sit here and ? my football 101 and call me a clown and in the same thread put a Superbowl MVP in the same catagory as a guy who hasn't played a whole season as a starter. Who's the f'n clown here?

[TheRealDeal]

Both have had similar success this season, but Mccoy has performed against far tougher competition. Mccoy has started seven games, 6 of them against teams with winning records, Bradford has only 4 games against teams with winning records. It would be interesting to see how Bradford would look had he played Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Jacksonville and the Jets.

There is no doubt that McCoy has played tougher competition but it can also be argued that he has had more help from his run game. McCoy might turn out to be better but when I watch the two play I just think that Bradford will be better. It's too early to tell with either though, no doubt.

[koolkatluke]

No you went personal on the last page. Your undying love for Matt moore got you looking like a idiot.

[TheRealDeal]

yes he would be successful, but until he takes those things and puts them in the Superbowl, then wins the damn thing, I'm just not going to put him in the same category, that's all.

That's why I didn't include Moore in the original discussion. Some clown asked and I answered and gave my reasons. It's all speculation. Based on what I've seen with similar support, Moore and Eli play the same. Matt hasn't done it nearly as long or on as big a stage but that's not really the point of the discussion.

[TheRealDeal]

No you went personal on the last page. Your undying love for Matt moore got you looking like a idiot.

You are the only one in this thread that thinks that. Mav and I often disagree but he and I can have rational discussion with real reasoning and debate. You just post nonsense and call me out but never post anything that anyone can understand nor anything of substance.

But by all means please continue.

[mav1234]

The flaw is in the logic that just because he played decent in a SB means he is a good QB. He had all things working for him. Most good QBs don't go out in a must win and throw 4 picks just because the run game is slowed.

My whole thing with Eli is that he so heavily depends on the run game and when that's gone he gets really exposed. You can bring up all the good you want but until he does something when the run game gets shut down then he's nothing more than a game manager.

Trent Dilfer also made some good plays in the superbowl (38 yd TD pass and 44 yd pass to set up FG) but he isn't considered anything more than a game manager. Unfair comparison I know but when you just point out two plays in a SB then you are inviting unfair comparisons

except that those two plays by Eli Manning are more than Matt Moore has ever done - yes, I know, he's never had the chance, but the reality is that when Moore was given the pressure of a team he crumbled. Eli was actually able to take his team and play and win, and it was on a day when his run game didn't get it done at all.

I'm not saying that Eli should be considered one of the all time greats, I just have a hard time thinking he hasn't shown himself to be a "good quarterback", because even if he can't consistently win without a run game, he can pull throw on big games without one (as he did in the Superbowl)

That's why I didn't include Moore in the original discussion. Some clown asked and I answered and gave my reasons. It's all speculation. Based on what I've seen with similar support, Moore and Eli play the same. Matt hasn't done it nearly as long or on as big a stage but that's not really the point of the discussion.

Perhaps, but I think that time and consistency matter. I think it's very possible Moore could do what Eli has, but he hasn't... and that's all I have to go on.

[koolkatluke]

If this is based on supporting cast then Joe Montana and Troy Aikman both had great supporting cast. They don't get downgraded for it nethier should Eli. Are any of his supporting cast HOF bound?

[TheRealDeal]

I'm not saying that Eli should be considered one of the all time greats, I just have a hard time thinking he hasn't shown himself to be a "good quarterback", because even if he can't consistently win without a run game, he can pull throw on big games without one (as he did in the Superbowl)

They ran for 94 yards in the Superbowl...you consider that without a run game?

[mav1234]

They ran for 134 yards in the Superbowl...you consider that without a run game?

for some reason I thought they had 90 ..

edit: wait no, they had 90 or Wikipedia is lying to me. Which is possible...

and yes I consider 3.5 ypc to not really be a top running game.

edit2: I mean, if you're going to say 90 yards is a good running day for a running team or something, so be it, but the fact remains Eli still made some amazing throws that game...

[TheRealDeal]

for some reason I thought they had 90 ..

edit: wait no, they had 90 or Wikipedia is lying to me. Which is possible...

and yes I consider 3.5 ypc to not really be a top running game.

Yeah I dunno where that number came from, ESPN lied to me. It wasn't a great rushing performance but it wasn't nothing. In comparison Brady only had 40 something yards rushing.

Getting away from the comparisons between Eli and Moore, the original premise stands.

[TheRealDeal]

for some reason I thought they had 90 ..

edit: wait no, they had 90 or Wikipedia is lying to me. Which is possible...

and yes I consider 3.5 ypc to not really be a top running game.

edit2: I mean, if you're going to say 90 yards is a good running day for a running team or something, so be it, but the fact remains Eli still made some amazing throws that game...

You're getting away from the point and focusing on a few throws he made. Like I said, Dilfer made great throws in his SB as well. Most people consider Eli to be nothing more than a game manager who benefited from having an above average defense throughout his career and a good supporting cast.

[mav1234]

Yeah I dunno where that number came from, ESPN lied to me. It wasn't a great rushing performance but it wasn't nothing. In comparison Brady only had 40 something yards rushing.

Getting away from the comparisons between Eli and Moore, the original premise stands.

I understand why you'd put Moore as a game manager. I don't really dispute that.

I just think Eli has done enough to be considered good, even if he often needs a GOOD run game (but come on, of those good rated qbs most do too, which goes to your point anyway)... but I understand why people disagree, especially in a season where he has basically played a major part in deconstructing a number of Giant wins.

Anyway, let's drop this... we're not going to convince each other of anything.