Elite/Good/Game Manager(Decent)/Bad

[koolkatluke]

show me a quote where i said that

My bad you said look at him play.

But he still no where near in the same group with Matt moore you have 2 agree with that.

[TheRealDeal]

Mav, I think the facts back it up that when the two get similar supporting play, they have about the same numbers. Is that correct or no?

[Dpantherman]

I don't like either of them to be honest, Eli has a ring, but when i look at the too, give Moore that oline, Nicks, Steve Smith (the other one), Manningham, and Kevin Boss, who knows. I do know Eli Manning is average at best. really good QBs don't throw 24 interceptions.

[koolkatluke]

So his defense had nothing to do with that right? What about the fumbles and drop balls by his skill position player?

Greenbay game

No it's all Eli fault. I guess it's Eli fault that he can't get on the field and tackle Vick or kick a punt out of bounds.

Philly Game

does this help?

Dude I was given you reason for the last 2 games.

Greenbay game = drop balls by wr fumbles on scoring drives by Bradshaw and jacbos. What about the defense not being able 2 stop A rodgers all game was that his fault also? Plus he has been missing 2 best wr most of the year.

[mav1234]

Mav, I think the facts back it up that when the two get similar supporting play, they have about the same numbers. Is that correct or no?

Manning has played so much more consistently over such a longer period I don't think you can really stretch Moore's numbers quite that far. It's fair to say Moore put up good numbers in his time as a starter LAST YEAR when the entire team was clicking... but that's about it. You can't really put him in conversation with Superbowl winning quarterbacks yet who really have put up those kinda performances over more than just one singular stretch.

I don't like either of them to be honest, Eli has a ring, but when i look at the too, give Moore that oline, Nicks, Steve Smith (the other one), Manningham, and Kevin Boss, who knows. I do know Eli Manning is average at best. really good QBs don't throw 24 interceptions.

No, but good qbs can have bad seasons, and I do think that is what's happening with Eli right now. He is by no means great, and I think it is even debatable how good he is, but I don't think you can really put him and Moore in the same category.

[koolkatluke]

I don't like either of them to be honest, Eli has a ring, but when i look at the too, give Moore that oline, Nicks, Steve Smith (the other one), Manningham, and Kevin Boss, who knows. I do know Eli Manning is average at best. really good QBs don't throw 24 interceptions.

And Moore would poo on himself because the pressure would get 2 him.

As he has said himself.

[koolkatluke]

Mav, I think the facts back it up that when the two get similar supporting play, they have about the same numbers. Is that correct or no?

You would have 2 do some serious CPA IRS accountant type poo 2 make their numbers look the same!!!

Plus Eli has one of the longest games played streak and Matt is on IR.

Are you really going 2 sit here and argue this?

[mav1234]

the complicated factor, koolkatluke, is the fact that Eli has one of the better supporting casts in the NFL.

...when they hold onto the ball anyway...

[TheRealDeal]

Manning has played so much more consistently over such a longer period I don't think you can really stretch Moore's numbers quite that far. It's fair to say Moore put up good numbers in his time as a starter LAST YEAR when the entire team was clicking... but that's about it. You can't really put him in conversation with Superbowl winning quarterbacks yet who really have put up those kinda performances over more than just one singular stretch.

It's also unfair to put Moore below Eli just because we haven't seen that much of him. I'm just going off of what we've seen. With comparable rushing performances, Moore has had just as good of numbers. Moore had two bad games and that's all people remember. They don't remember that his backs did nothing.

People generalize Eli just because he has a SB win. His defensive line is the reason they won that SuperBowl and you know it. Eli shat the bed against the Pack but people overlook that.

I'm looking at what the individual QBs are capable of. Manning is just as dependent on a run game and defense as Moore as, as history has shown.

It wasn't meant to be a comparison of the two players but other poster's make it that way to try and discredit my opinion. The thread was intended to debunk the myth of "Franchise QBs" and show that most QBs in this league need a strong supporting cast to be successful.

[TheRealDeal]

You would have 2 do some serious CPA IRS accountant type poo 2 make their numbers look the same!!!

Plus Eli has one of the longest games played streak and Matt is on IR.

Are you really going 2 sit here and argue this?

Now you are bringing things up that aren't relevant in the discussion. People on IR can't be game managers? People that play a lot of games can't be game managers? Please explain your point.

[TheRealDeal]

the complicated factor, koolkatluke, is the fact that Eli has one of the better supporting casts in the NFL.

...when they hold onto the ball anyway...

For most of the year he had the #1 rusher and the #3 defense. That'll make most QBs look good.

Let's be real Mav (because I know KKL can't), based on what you've seen from Moore in the past, if he had the #1 rusher and the #3 defense, you don't think he'd be successful?

[mav1234]

It's also unfair to put Moore below Eli just because we haven't seen that much of him. I'm just going off of what we've seen. With comparable rushing performances, Moore has had just as good of numbers. Moore had two bad games and that's all people remember. They don't remember that his backs did nothing.

People generalize Eli just because he has a SB win. His defensive line is the reason they won that SuperBowl and you know it. Eli shat the bed against the Pack but people overlook that.

I'm looking at what the individual QBs are capable of. Manning is just as dependent on a run game and defense as Moore as, as history has shown.

It wasn't meant to be a comparison of the two players but other poster's make it that way to try and discredit my opinion. The thread was intended to debunk the myth of "Franchise QBs" and show that most QBs in this league need a strong supporting cast to be successful.

I understand where you're coming from with it, I just require a quarterback to have done more than played well in a half dozen games.

Eli was pretty good that year in the playoffs btw. Yes he had a great defense, but the Pats did too in that Superbowl. His D was why he got it that far but when it actually came time for him to put up or go down in flames, he actually managed to make plays happen... Remember the team they were playing; it wasn't a bottom-feeding defense on the field against him. So for that I just can't put him in the same category as someone who has played so few games. However, I do see why people would put Eli in a game manager category and why some posters here would put Moore in that category as well.

Ultimately I think that is more of a flaw of that kind of model though. ;P

Also, as a note, if Moore had been consistent at the level he was last year through this year I'd say we have ourselves our franchise's quarterback, even if he wasn't a "franchise quarterback."

edit: to respond to the above...

yes he would be successful, but until he takes those things and puts them in the Superbowl, then wins the damn thing, I'm just not going to put him in the same category, that's all.

[Davidson Deac II]

Really?

I just think Bradford turning around the Rams and being a leader for them is impressive. I think he has the potential to be better based on his physical tools alone.

McCoy has The Great White Hope in the backfield which takes a lot of pressure off him. SJax is a beast but isn't having the year that Hillis is. A lot more is on Bradford's shoulders and he's handling it well. I don't see McCoy having as high a ceiling as Sam.

They are both Game Managers but I see Bradford being able to be good

Both have had similar success this season, but Mccoy has performed against far tougher competition. Mccoy has started seven games, 6 of them against teams with winning records, Bradford has only 4 games against teams with winning records. It would be interesting to see how Bradford would look had he played Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Jacksonville and the Jets.

[koolkatluke]

Now you are bringing things up that aren't relevant in the discussion. People on IR can't be game managers? People that play a lot of games can't be game managers? Please explain your point.

That's the F'n fact. You are not going 2 sit here and ? my football 101 and call me a clown and in the same thread put a Superbowl MVP in the same catagory as a guy who hasn't played a whole season as a starter. Who's the f'n clown here?