Pat White

[King Taharqa]

See the thing is you ignored the second half of my post which pretty much states why what YOU'RE doing is not helping. Instead of trying to promote his merits, you're accusing everyone of being racist because he's black. Sorry but noone has a problem with McNabb*, Leftwich, Garrard, Cunningham, Moon, etc. It's YOU who have the problem. Sorry but I don't think you really have any idea what it's truly like to be discriminated against.

Its interesting you brought up HOFer Warren Moon. Did you know that when he gradudated from Washington no NFL team drafted him or would give him a chance because he was black and refused to move to WR? Sounds familiar doesnt it?

Do you think you see it, when in fact it's just not there. The fact of the matter is that the NFL doesn't care what race you are, as long as you can make them money or win games.

It is there and acting like Im the only guy who sees it is pretty naive. Ive had this discussion millions off times offline and I stand behind my comment that the many in the black fanbase of the NFL sees it. Hell, Donovan McNabb is an NFL QB himself and he's spoken on the non belief/double standard for black QBs. You'd think with a new black Prez, and a new era upon us we could get out of the "lets not speak on the ugly truths that make us uncomfortable" faze, but some want to still play out of sight/out of mind. I cant tell you how many times someone's asked me why dont the Panthers go after this guy or try to draft this QB, and I have to tell them we dont believe in or want black QBs on our roster. Im often inclined to point out to them that the most hated football player in the Panther fanbase is an athetic black QB named Michael Vick.

Sorry but with the speed and strength of NFL defenses in this day and age you have to be incredibly gifted athletically if you want to be a true running QB, this isn't college where most defenses simply can't keep up. This is why college spread offenses fail in the NFL. But if you spent more time actually researching the game you're chastising rather than ranting about falsely perceived racism you'd know better. Not only that but when QB's leave the line of scrimmage they will get hit and hit hard, and we all know what happens to teams that lose their starting QB. The potential benefits of having a scrambling QB simply do not outweigh the negatives, and that's why clubs steer away from them.

No, thats why the Panthers steer away from athletic QBs. Ben Rothlisberger is constantly on the move making plays with his feet. Evading the rush, or picking up yardage. His ability at his size makes him a good athlete. Donovan McNabb makes plays with his feet. Undersized scrambler Jeff Garcia has made a living off of beating the Panthers time and time again. I could go on and on about QBs who might not throw the prettiest spiral 60 yards, but are dual threats in the NFL. But lets stick with what works here in Carolina. I want my QB to be as immobile as possible. I want him to not be able to throw a slant pattern or a screen pass. I want a guy who can only underthrow 40-50 yard bombs occassionally. Scramble for a much needed first down? Hell no, I dont want my QB doing that.

[Mr. Scot]

I cant tell you how many times someone's asked me why dont the Panthers go after this guy or try to draft this QB, and I have to tell them we dont believe in or want black QBs on our roster. Im often inclined to point out to them that the most hated football player in the Panther fanbase is an athetic black QB named Michael Vick.

Dameyune Craig and Rod Rutherford were white? :confused:

No, thats why the Panthers steer away from athletic QBs. Ben Rothlisberger is constantly on the move making plays with his feet. Evading the rush, or picking up yardage. His ability at his size makes him a good athlete. Donovan McNabb makes plays with his feet. Undersized scrambler Jeff Garcia has made a living off of beating the Panthers time and time again. I could go on and on about QBs who might not throw the prettiest spiral 60 yards, but are dual threats in the NFL. But lets stick with what works here in Carolina. I want my QB to be as immobile as possible. I want him to not be able to throw a slant pattern or a screen pass. I want a guy who can only underthrow 40-50 yard bombs occassionally. Scramble for a much needed first down? Hell no, I dont want my QB doing that.

Josh McCown is an athletic quarterback. He's a very good scrambler and an effective rusher as well.

And honestly, suggesting a team where both the DC and the guy with the title of 'assistant head coach' (Jim Skipper) are black is racist is a little weak. My guess, if you accused Fox of racism, one of the first guys stepping up to defend him would be a fella named Herman Edwards.

I've said it plenty of times, but will say it again. The guys who get switched in the NFL are guys who can run but can't pass. A big reason is that teams who have taken chances on these guys believing that they could turn them into passers have wound up failing.

Eric Crouch and Vince Young are prime examples (though with Crouch they didn't really try, his is a different sort of failure). So was Vick, honestly. It just took longer for the Falcons to admit it. Travaris Jackson is probably next on that train. Given that the list of failures is growing and the list of successes is pretty non-existent, why would any NFL team continue to go this route?

Guys who can run and pass are different. That's why Steve Young, John Elway and Steve McNair were so valuable to their teams. Jeff Garcia and Donovan McNabb fit here too as long as you're running a West Coast offense (in a conventional offense, not so good). The jury's still out on Jason Campbell, but he's got a good QB guru to work with (Jim Zorn).

And then there's guys like JaMarcus Russell, David Garrard and Byron Leftwich who are actually better passers than runners (especially Leftwich). These guys are all at a crossroads right now, but whether they pass or fail will have a lot more to do with the muscles in their arms and the grey matter between their ears than the color of their skin.

It's a pretty simple formula. Guys who are primarily running QBs are going to fail at the pro level regardless of color. Guys who are effective passers first and can also scramble are valuable, but hard to find. There just aren't that many guys who can effectively do both. And if they can only do one or the other, it better be the passing or they just aren't going to make it as pro QBs.

It's my lament that the college system as it is now fails athletic QBs regardless of color, but as P55 and I have been debating, it's not an easy thing to fix.

[Fiz]

king t, you're probably right that racism exists to an extent with blacks playing qb, but it almost surely occurs at a younger age than the NFL.

which black qb in the nfl do you feel isn't getting a fair shake?

also, regardless of how athletic vick was, he couldn't read a defense to save his life, and he couldn't accurately make short to medium throws. He also wasn't the most naturally dedicated.

of course the hiring of a coach who wouldn't put his nose to the grindstone who implemented an offensive system that hinged specifically on his weakness (short throws and reading defenses) didn't help matters any.

[Mr. Scot]

king t, you're probably right that racism exists to an extent with blacks playing qb, but it almost surely occurs at a younger age than the NFL.

which black qb in the nfl do you feel isn't getting a fair shake?

also, regardless of how athletic vick was, he couldn't read a defense to save his life, and he couldn't accurately make short to medium throws. He also wasn't the most naturally dedicated.

of course the hiring of a coach who wouldn't put his nose to the grindstone who implemented an offensive system that hinged specifically on his weakness (short throws and reading defenses) didn't help matters any.

When Jim Mora announced he was going to run a WCO with the Falcons, I said to a friend of mine (and probably posted on a board) that Vick was doomed.

The ideal thing would have been to build an offense like the Eagles did around Randall Cunningham, maximizing his running ability and minimizing the need to pass. In fairness, even that only took the Eagles so far, but it would have been the better option with Vick.

Instead, they tried to force him to be a West Coast QB, and as a result Vick defenders wound up saying the Falcons had awful receivers. Evidence since has proven that notion to be completely false.

[Mr. Scot]

My full take on the primary subject, Pat White:

One, I seriously doubt he's coming to the Panthers, not because of his race but because like Gantt, I don't think the team sees a need to make changes to the QB depth chart. Disagree with that notion if you want, but it doesn't matter what we think, only what the team thinks.

As to his pro career...

This past year has shown that he can be developed as a passer. He isn't ready to be a starting NFL QB right now, but if he goes to a team that can sit him for a couple of years under a solid QB coach and teach him how to play the pro game, he might actually turn into the kind of dual threat teams crave but have a hard time finding.

The biggest problem (so to speak) will be his height. Others have overcome it, and he might with good enough coaching and a scheme that minimizes those issues. It just all depends on whether he goes to a team that's good at QB development and offensive adjustment. If he goes to somebody that wants to rush him onto the field though, it won't work.

In the end, the most likely outcome seems like him being another Antwaan Randle El (I forget who said that here) and in that role maybe the Panthers could use him. He might even be effective as a Seneca Wallace type, though again that's probably not with us.

[Brandon]

Its interesting you brought up HOFer Warren Moon. Did you know that when he gradudated from Washington no NFL team drafted him or would give him a chance because he was black and refused to move to WR? Sounds familiar doesnt it?

Yeah reminds me of STEVE YOUNG. Now please leave your race card at the door and never come back.

It is there and acting like Im the only guy who sees it is pretty naive. Ive had this discussion millions off times offline and I stand behind my comment that the many in the black fanbase of the NFL sees it. Hell, Donovan McNabb is an NFL QB himself and he's spoken on the non belief/double standard for black QBs. You'd think with a new black Prez, and a new era upon us we could get out of the "lets not speak on the ugly truths that make us uncomfortable" faze, but some want to still play out of sight/out of mind. I cant tell you how many times someone's asked me why dont the Panthers go after this guy or try to draft this QB, and I have to tell them we dont believe in or want black QBs on our roster. Im often inclined to point out to them that the most hated football player in the Panther fanbase is an athetic black QB named Michael Vick.

Sorry but do you guys all have a website "whitemankeepingtheblackqbdown.com"? Have you not heard the heaps of praise every fuging commentator, sportswriter, and non NFC-East fan gives Donovan McNabb? Many feel he's one of the best QB's in the leage when he's healthy but take marks away because he gets hurt a LOT. By the way KT, don't fuging say Obama is black. He isn't, and you know that. In fact that's quite insulting and racist of you to leave out the fact that the's multi-racial.

Yeah and Michael Vick was also a THUG. He had a piss poor me first attitude, couldn't consistently make the throws he was asked to, would take off running even with open receivers downfield, and worst of all his off the field activities were inexcusable for anyone in a leadership position. Now tell me, why are you trying to defend Vick at all? Anyone with football sense knows he's a poo QB.

There are 32 starting QB's in the league and 7 of those spots are black, which is TWICE the percentage of black people in the US. Now tell me, at what point will you be happy with the amount of QB's that are black

No, thats why the Panthers steer away from athletic QBs. Ben Rothlisberger is constantly on the move making plays with his feet. Evading the rush, or picking up yardage. His ability at his size makes him a good athlete. Donovan McNabb makes plays with his feet. Undersized scrambler Jeff Garcia has made a living off of beating the Panthers time and time again. I could go on and on about QBs who might not throw the prettiest spiral 60 yards, but are dual threats in the NFL. But lets stick with what works here in Carolina. I want my QB to be as immobile as possible. I want him to not be able to throw a slant pattern or a screen pass. I want a guy who can only underthrow 40-50 yard bombs occassionally. Scramble for a much needed first down? Hell no, I dont want my QB doing that.

Ben Roethlisberger also holds onto the ball way too long and gets sacked a lot in the process (I'm a Steelers fan as well mind you). I love his athletic ability but what really sets him apart is that he can actually throw the ball. When he leaves the pocket he's not automatically looking to run the ball, he keeps his eyes downfield on his receivers at all times so he can make the play. He still gets a LOT of criticism for it though, but then again you probably don't take mind of it because he's not black do you?

Jeff Garcia is also one of the most accurate QB's in the league, which is important if you want to be moving outside of the pocket. He doesn't just burn you with his moves he also can make a 3 step drop and get the ball out extremely quickly, making him very hard to defend on short passes which is what... wait for it... normally we hate about him.

I find it laughable that you are trying to make out pocket passers to be pitiful excuses for a quarterback when we all know the greatest QB's of all time were traditional pocket passers. You're not gonna see Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning or Tom Brady outside of the pocket unless things are really going wrong, and I heard somewhere that these guys might be good I don't know.

Also KT, read back where I said I wanted to give him a shot because I think he has potential to be a good QB but you obviously overlooked the majority of these posts in having an interest in him coming here and just focused on the guys who didn't want him because they saw the games where he performed badly.

[scpanther22]

i think black people have to be more common place in higher postions in the nfl...then you will see more black QBs..more black HCs and a black owner..look at mike tomlin he is black and 2 out 3 or his QBs are black.if josh johnson comes along he could start in tampa.and 2 of the top 10 QBs in the draft are black nate davis and josh freeman..

but not just black i whould like to see the NFL more diverse anyway.plenty of white people can be a WR or running back.

[Squirrel]

I have watched him play and he can throw well at times and has thrown in coverage with success. He doesn't thread the needle with regularity or show the consistency needed for the pro game in the games I have seen. His most impressive by far was his last as a mountaineer.

My comments were about his performances against ECU since that is what you referenced. I didn't say he couldn't do it, simply he didn't against ECU even when they didn't have a good defense.

That was lik the 4th or 5 th game of the season the Offense for WVU was struggling then because of the new system. Nobody is saying he will come in and be great or that he will be drafted in the first three rounds. Just that if he is availble in the 4th or later he would be a good project. Do I think the Panthers will drat him, No we have enough QB's and he doesnt fit Fox's philsophy. I think Miami might grab him or another team like that and give him a chance to play QB.

[panthers55]

That was lik the 4th or 5 th game of the season the Offense for WVU was struggling then because of the new system. Nobody is saying he will come in and be great or that he will be drafted in the first three rounds. Just that if he is availble in the 4th or later he would be a good project. Do I think the Panthers will drat him, No we have enough QB's and he doesnt fit Fox's philsophy. I think Miami might grab him or another team like that and give him a chance to play QB.

He would be an interesting project. Unfortunately he is being cast as another running quarterback with a decent arm ala Vince Young. It will take a good quarterback coach and a patient coordinator in order to work with him until he learns the pro game. If he is cheap enough he could end up on someone's practice squad.

[Squirrel]

He would be an interesting project. Unfortunately he is being cast as another running quarterback with a decent arm ala Vince Young. It will take a good quarterback coach and a patient coordinator in order to work with him until he learns the pro game. If he is cheap enough he could end up on someone's practice squad.

IIRC his parents have money so it wouldnt hurt him to be placed PS. Even if they get paid decent. I figure he will give this a few years and if it doesnt work out go to baseball. From my understanding he is pretty good at that too.

[panthers55]

IIRC his parents have money so it wouldnt hurt him to be placed PS. Even if they get paid decent. I figure he will give this a few years and if it doesnt work out go to baseball. From my understanding he is pretty good at that too.

Guys like White are exactly the kind of players the NFL- Europe was developed for. Guys like Jake and Warner cut their teeth there or likely wouldn't have gotten a chance themselves. The problem these days is that with only 8 practice squad players it is hard to stash players for long and with teams only carrying 2 or 3 quarterbacks at most, it is hard to break into a squad somewhere. Look at us. Almost automatically a guy we draft would be competing with Basanez for the fourth spot. And as most people remember there was real questions as to whether we would keep him. If Moore didn't get injured, Basanez wold be long gone.

[Fox007]

Guys like White are exactly the kind of players the NFL- Europe was developed for. Guys like Jake and Warner cut their teeth there or likely wouldn't have gotten a chance themselves. The problem these days is that with only 8 practice squad players it is hard to stash players for long and with teams only carrying 2 or 3 quarterbacks at most, it is hard to break into a squad somewhere. Look at us. Almost automatically a guy we draft would be competing with Basanez for the fourth spot. And as most people remember there was real questions as to whether we would keep him. If Moore didn't get injured, Basanez wold be long gone.

I agree, I hate the CFL and arena football, but NFL-Europe wasn't that bad for what you said.

I think Warner did play some arena, and did develop some unique skills from that such as his quick release. So some of the things can help at those levels but overall Europe was like stash of players that couldn't be on your official squad.

[mantal]

Guys like White are exactly the kind of players the NFL- Europe was developed for. Guys like Jake and Warner cut their teeth there or likely wouldn't have gotten a chance themselves. The problem these days is that with only 8 practice squad players it is hard to stash players for long and with teams only carrying 2 or 3 quarterbacks at most, it is hard to break into a squad somewhere. Look at us. Almost automatically a guy we draft would be competing with Basanez for the fourth spot. And as most people remember there was real questions as to whether we would keep him. If Moore didn't get injured, Basanez wold be long gone.

'Um, Bazanez was cut last season and we brought in McCown. I know, brain fart, I have them to...

[scpanther22]

'Um, Bazanez was cut last season and we brought in McCown. I know, brain fart, I have them to...

he is on the practice squad..or was we did not sign him to a future contract so exspect a new undrafted QB soon