Let's Accept Some Basic Truths

[Delhommey]

Somethings I hope most can accept as the basis of discussions around here.

1. Fox is gone: Really hope there's no debate here.

2. The trade for Edwards was a gamble gone bad (though we won't know for sure for another couple of years), not proof that Hurney can't find talent: Marty's a gambler. Gamblers will sometimes lose...BAD. I've found Hurney an above average but in no way great talent scout.

Looks like he rolled snake eyes on this one (but we won't know for sure for another couple of years), but when he goes with safer, solider choices, he's tended to do well.

3. Trading a first for Brown and Goodson was basically a gamble that resulted in a push: Brown has a good chance at being solid at the DE position and a puncher's chance at being good at the DE position.

Goodson, provided he learns how to block and hold onto the football, could be a key piece to the team.

Having these two players is worth a first, but isn't something anyone would put at the top of their resume. A "meh" trade if you will.

4. Luck will be the pick if he declares and we have the #1 pick: Clausen has his own destiny in his hands. If he can pull it together, we win a couple and draft 2nd or 3rd, Pickles is our QB of the future. If he doesn't, we draft 1st and take Luck. Pretty simple really.

5. We are two good drafts and a handful of FA's away from being a perennial playoff team: With the assumption we take Luck or Clausen pans out to be a better than average QB, all we need is a penetrating DT, a WR a G (or maybe a RT or LT and a line shift) to be a very, very good team.

The supporting cast is there (and is young). We just need a few bright spots. Like Fiz said, we're more talented than the Petrino era Falcons were.

[Jaxel]

Just to play devil's advocate... the Lions have been saying this for years...

[Delhommey]

My rebuttal in three parts:

1. Matt Millen

2. Matt Millen

3. Matt Millen

[panthers55]

Somethings I hope most can accept as the basis of discussions around here.

1. Fox is gone: Really hope there's no debate here.

2. The trade for Edwards was a gamble gone bad (though we won't know for sure for another couple of years), not proof that Hurney can't find talent: Marty's a gambler. Gamblers will sometimes lose...BAD. I've found Hurney an above average but in no way great talent scout.

Looks like he rolled snake eyes on this one (but we won't know for sure for another couple of years), but when he goes with safer, solider choices, he's tended to do well.

3. Trading a first for Brown and Goodson was basically a gamble that resulted in a push: Brown has a good chance at being solid at the DE position and a puncher's chance at being good at the DE position.

Goodson, provided he learns how to block and hold onto the football, could be a key piece to the team.

Having these two players is worth a first, but isn't something anyone would put at the top of their resume. A "meh" trade if you will.

4. Luck will be the pick if he declares and we have the #1 pick: Clausen has his own destiny in his hands. If he can pull it together, we win a couple and draft 2nd or 3rd, Pickles is our QB of the future. If he doesn't, we draft 1st and take Luck. Pretty simple really.

5. We are two good drafts and a handful of FA's away from being a perennial playoff team: With the assumption we take Luck or Clausen pans out to be a better than average QB, all we need is a penetrating DT, a WR a G (or maybe a RT or LT and a line shift) to be a very, very good team.

The supporting cast is there (and is young). We just need a few bright spots. Like Fiz said, we're more talented than the Petrino era Falcons were.

1. That is a fact.

2. The gamble wasn't just picking Edwards but thinking that we would be much better than we are so that the pick turned out to be a mid to late second round pick versus what is now likely to be a few positions from being a late first rounder. He defintely should be gambling with 6th or 7 rounders not picking up projects in the first few rounds.

3. While Goodson was a throw-in initially, he may end being the better part of the deal compared to Brown. Goodson is not only a good returner but a very good running back as well. He may become the best running back on the team.

4. Luck could be the pick but I think that Newton may be the better pick. He actually has the chance to change the game in that he can run well and throw as well. He has the size, and arm of a guy like Roethlisberger but can run like Vick in a much larger package. He might be able to be the quarterback who could bring a successful version of the spread offense to the NFL. A guy like Gruden could do alot with a quarterback like Newton.

5. We are a franchise quarterback and a few free agents from being a playoff team. Being a perennial playoff team will take a change in coaching philosophy and a change in emphasis from shooting for 3-1 each quarter to winning every game and not getting content once we taste success.

[FuzzyPanther]

1- Yeah, hard to debate.

2- It's just too soon to call. If the point is to "accept as a general truth", I don't think I'm ready to do so until I actually get to see him play. Let's give him another year and see how we feel?

3- Won't argue too much with this, but I think Goodson might be better than we all think, and we've just been spoiled by very talented running backs in 08 and 09.

4- That looks like the popular opinion of sportswriters at this time. I will personally admit to having no idea how to evaluate a college QB. On a slight tangent: If YOU are Andrew Luck, and you aren't sure if there is NFL football next year, but you KNOW there is college football, why would you be in a rush to leave college? (This might just be me, but it seems like a strong incentive for him to stay another year)

5- Agreed, but I would agree with that statement for most teams in the NFL.

[panthers55]

4- That looks like the popular opinion of sportswriters at this time. I will personally admit to having no idea how to evaluate a college QB. On a slight tangent: If YOU are Andrew Luck, and you aren't sure if there is NFL football next year, but you KNOW there is college football, why would you be in a rush to leave college? (This might just be me, but it seems like a strong incentive for him to stay another year).

I can think of 50 to 70 million reason to declare. Let him talk to LaFell and Hardy about the wisdom of staying in school when you are projected to be a first rounder as an underclassman.

[David Duke Is a Bad Person]

1- Yeah, hard to debate.

2- It's just too soon to call. If the point is to "accept as a general truth", I don't think I'm ready to do so until I actually get to see him play. Let's give him another year and see how we feel?

3- Won't argue too much with this, but I think Goodson might be better than we all think, and we've just been spoiled by very talented running backs in 08 and 09.

4- That looks like the popular opinion of sportswriters at this time. I will personally admit to having no idea how to evaluate a college QB. On a slight tangent: If YOU are Andrew Luck, and you aren't sure if there is NFL football next year, but you KNOW there is college football, why would you be in a rush to leave college? (This might just be me, but it seems like a strong incentive for him to stay another year)

5- Agreed, but I would agree with that statement for most teams in the NFL.

Agree

[FuzzyPanther]

I can think of 50 to 70 million reason to declare. Let him talk to LaFell and Hardy about the wisdom of staying in school when you are projected to be a first rounder as an underclassman.

Will draft picks be paid if the season is locked out? (Seriously, I don't know?)

[Kevin Greene]

1: yes

2: Horrible trade, cannot be defended.

3: meh, Goodson could be had with any 4th. Brown, meh again.

4: yes

5: yes

5: A disclaimer. Given the proper Head Coach hire and GM, we will be there.

There was no organization in worse condition than the Falcons after 2007. Vick, well you know, Petrino bails. But the Falcons hired Thomas Dimitroff from the Pats, his drafts have been very good. Mike Smith has been money.

Do I think Hurney can do what Dimitroff has done? No.

Hurney must go as well.

[rayzor]

lions went years with horrible leadership at GM. wrong personnel choices were constantly made and for a few years, even though they were among the worst teams in the league, had a bunch of divas who thought they were incredible, but had no concept of team.

they now have better management, the right coach, a good QB who is tough (even if he might have a few bones made of glass), the beginning of a decent defense one of the best WRs in the league...things are falling into place for them.

much of it has to do with leadership and that is going to be a huge thing to get the panthers on the right track. progressive leadership at HC and a leader needs show up behind center. leadership is going to be a key factor in deciding who is going to be the next QB here. having the right tools isn't going to cut it. it has to be someone smart and who is able to get the team fired up on his side of the ball and willing to go to battle for him. the balance between intangibles and talent needs to be there.

we have a few pieces missing, but they are attainable and most of them could be found in this draft. if things don't completely come together next year, then we'll have another early pick in the draft. they'll be some decent talent coming out that year as well. might even be able to pull off drafting alshon jeffery or matt kalil (ryan's bro that plays OT).

[panthers55]

Will draft picks be paid if the season is locked out? (Seriously, I don't know?)

I would think they would. Players and owners believe that a deal will get done. The question is when. it isn't unusual for high first rounders to still be negotiating in preseason and close to the beginning of the season.

[rayzor]

i don't know if or how draft picks would be paid, but they would be drafted and that isn't something they would have to worry about. staying in college another year when they could be drafted high exposes them to injury or other drops in production which leads to a drop in value.

also, if there are going to be more players waiting until 2012 to come out it could end up being a crowded market which could end up diluting their stock. if they are projected to go high this year, they are better off going ahead and entering the draft.

[Pox 08]

If a rookie cap is put in place, I wonder what the price will be for the #1 pick.

[R0CKnR0LLA]

There's two parts to the AE deal. First off is deciding to draft him in the 3rd round in a very deep draft, when there were other very good players on the board AND you possibly could have waited until the 4th or even later. Maybe he becomes a stud and makes this seem like a moot point and at least this part is debatable.

Then there's trading a future 2nd, that looks now to be the 33rd overall, for a very late 3rd (89th overall). This isn't a "gamble", you know you are losing this trade right off the bat. There's no way your future 2nd somehow ends up being later than an 89th overall selection. The only gamble is just how bad you're getting ripped off. It's a bad move making these kind of trades and at least to me this isn't really a debatable point.

Same thing with the Brown pick. He's really not that bad of a pick for a 2nd rounder in what was a pretty weak draft. Look at that whole 2nd round, it's not exactly overflowing with homerun prospects. The problem is trading away a 1st rounder to get the 2nd round pick, where you could have ended up with a stud like Dez Bryant.