Hurney report card

[Baschski]

Defend him then. Don't forget the most significant moves (or failures to move) over the past 2-3 years:

1. Jake Delhomme contract

2. Julus Peppers, the entire saga

3. Drafting an injured RB that is still fighting potentially career-threatening problems relating to that injury. (I agree that he had a good year and Hurney had medical advice, so I give him this one. However, I think he was drafted with the 13th pick and he was going under the knife--risky.)

4. Trading a future first rounder and a second for a first round RIGHT tackle with an injury history. (Otah is awesome when he is in, but if you give criticism to Clausen without considering the other variables, humor me here)

5. Trading a first rounder for an undersized DE from Florida State, a school that has had little luck placing successful DEs in the NFL--in other words, DEs from FSU are busts. Hurney has a history of taking the draft's fallers, something that has not always panned out).

6. Trading picks for Louis Leonard an Tank Tlyer. You might say, "we had no choice." Exactly. Knowing when to release or trade players is just as important as knowing when to pick or who to sign. Lewis and Kemoeatu were done. How was DT addressed? Hayden.

7. Drafting Clausen or any QB was a result of the Delhomme fiasco. Did it occur to anyone that the QB who beat us 2 games ago was being paid by the Panthers more than the Browns?

I am sorry, but I don't see reason to sing Hurney's praises. He may have had it once, but for the past two years, he has done little to make us better. Sure I have the advantage of hindsight, but anyone who thinks Hurney is beyond negative criticism is naive.

1. Freed up much-needed cap space.

2. Would love to know the better way to handle it. You could say we should have let him walk from the beginning but our D-Line would have been pathetic that year.

3. You're kidding, right? Stewart is a top 10 RB and has hardly been injured. He's only missed games for a concussion and the surgery had no impact on his performance. Risky move drafting him? Sure. Did it pay off? Absolutely.

4. We didn't trade a first and a second, we switched first rounders. Big difference. And most of his "injury history" has happened in the pros. Dan Morgan was never injured in college and yet he couldn't play a full season in the pros. College "injury history" isn't very telling. When he's healthy he's Pro-Bowl caliber, and I'm not sure why you're offended that we drafted a right tackle when we had a need there and we are a run-first team.

5. Brown hasn't panned out like we had hoped but that doesn't make the move a bad one. We desperately needed a pass rusher with Peppers on his way out. Brown was graded high second round. Also, it's still too early to call Brown a bust. Let him play with some competent DT's and see how he does. Also, this is a complete hindsight criticism. If Brown had 9 sacks this year you'd be slobbering Hurney's knob over this move, not criticizing it.

6. Tyler and Leonard both actually played pretty well last year. They were stop-gaps and served their purpose.

7. See #1.

[Baschski]

no one, i repeat, no one was happy about trading away our second to take edwards in the 3rd.

that was stupid as poo then, and it was stupid as poo now. If he turns into the greatest receiver of all time, then it was a good trade. anything less than a pro bowl or two is a complete waste of the pick

So any player drafted using a 2nd round pick has to be a Pro-Bowler or the pick was wasted?

[SorthNarolina]

I still think spending two first round picks on Running Backs, however talented, was dumb.

I don't like first round picks on that position, considering the pounding players take AND how reliant it is on good offensive line play. Two take TWO was a little moronic. We were definitely in 'Win Now' mode there though.

Most of the league is shifting to a two back system right? It's not like they both aren't very good.

Maybe a little extravagant(because they were 13th/25th) picks but not moronic. It worked out pretty well. 08 and 09 wouldn't have happened without it. I'd rather be 20-12 over that span than 12-20.

Also I think it is somewhat reliant on offensive line play as a good O-line will make just about any back serviceable. But not as much as people think. If you don't have a back that can elude or run over tacklers your run game will chug along at 3-4 yards a carry and eventually be shut down.

The 08 Giants game is a good example of a good O-line going against a good defense with the talent of the running back being the difference maker. It's those kind of backs that take you deep in the playoffs.

[SorthNarolina]

So any player drafted using a 2nd round pick has to be a Pro-Bowler or the pick was wasted?

trading a future higher pick for a lower pick in the present sets a very high standard that the player and FO should be held to. Significant investments should lead to significant gains.

[Mother Grabber]

You're evaluating our GM based on the performance of a bunch of rookies? ...and from a single graft class at that. Not a very braod sample set.

[MHS831]

You are all making the assumption that I am only critical in hindsight. When you analyze the reason your team is 1-11, you usually don't focus on the positives (see Millen, Detroit Lions). Now, if you think the positves outweigh the negatives, then argue that point, instead of calling someone ignorant. Please list his brilliant moves and explain how we benefited from them. Try to do so without them turning into excuses.

I was extremely irritated that we drafted Stewart, and didn't like the Otah move because it was a steep price for a Right Tackle. I was furious when we traded up for Brown because I knew why he was dropping and felt that if he was drafted, it would be as an OLB in a 3-4. The Edwards trade/pick put me on suicide watch. So don't assume I am only mentioning this now.

I encourage those calling my points, from the Jake/Peppers mess to the draft deals, stupid to explain how Hurney should be praised for his decisions of late. Use facts, not excuses or name-calling. Calling someone dumb does not make you the winner of an argument. I like discussions where views clash, but the true mark of intelligence is when you learn how to properly represent your opinion and learn to respect the views of others.

[MHS831]

You're evaluating our GM based on the performance of a bunch of rookies? ...and from a single graft class at that. Not a very braod sample set.

actually you are right. So I went back to the Peppers situation, the delhomme contract, the Otah and Brown Draft day trades. Sorry for the confusion.

And by the way, Clausen was getting hammered after 2 games. Hurney gets more time?

[MHS831]

Most of the league is shifting to a two back system right? It's not like they both aren't very good.

Maybe a little extravagant(because they were 13th/25th) picks but not moronic. It worked out pretty well. 08 and 09 wouldn't have happened without it. I'd rather be 20-12 over that span than 12-20.

Also I think it is somewhat reliant on offensive line play as a good O-line will make just about any back serviceable. But not as much as people think. If you don't have a back that can elude or run over tacklers your run game will chug along at 3-4 yards a carry and eventually be shut down.

The 08 Giants game is a good example of a good O-line going against a good defense with the talent of the running back being the difference maker. It's those kind of backs that take you deep in the playoffs.

Very good points. At the time, I questioned how a second RB was oupr biggest priority. I am of the school that a good line and an average rb is better than a good rb and an average line. Stewarts' health was a concern. I felt it would have caused him to drop, but who knows. I thought we needed a DT and OT more. I even thought QB might be on the radar, but we all knew we weren't going QB early in the draft then.

[Icege]

I like discussions where views clash, but the true mark of intelligence is when you learn how to properly represent your opinion and learn to respect the views of others.

Pot.

This is Kettle.

[Chimera]

Before evaluating our GM, answer these questions:

1. Would you trade Armanti Edwards and Jimmy Clausen to New England for the second rounder (probably the 33rd overall pick) we sent them for the right to draft Edwards?

No. Clausen won't be great. Ever. But he will a solid back up for us a la Matt Moore before he started. Until we get a line that can play together, backup QB is probably the most important spot on the team.

AE is a project. I don't agree with the trade; I think he would have been there in the 5th round. But its done. Let the project develop before you judge the project.

2. Overall, Hurney & Co. drafted players that dropped significantly, according to draft experts (Clausen, Norwood, Hardy, Pike) . In general, were we foolish for taking these players these so many teams passed over?

Hardy will be great once he learns to control his body. Norwood is versatile enough to play OLB or DE. He's been solid so far on special teams, which, as a rookie, is where he needs to be. I don't like Clausen, but he wasn't exactly brought into the best of situations. His mentors are Matt Moore, Keith Null and Brian St. Pierre for goodness sakes. Pike has a history of injury, which is why he dropped. Now he has a history of ghost injuries in the pros.

3. Have the panthers shown an inability in recent years of being able to draft a DT or sign one in free agency? (draft- Hayden, Ellison, Irvin; free agency: Tank, Louis Leonard, Ed Johnson)

You left out Hollis Thomas, who I thought was pretty solid last season. He freed up the linebackers enough so that our defense could take over games. Kemo and Lewis were solid for us for years. I don't think anyone predicted the injuries in 2009. But yes, you're right here. We have a bunch of scrubs at DT. The only potential I see is in Nick Hayden.

4. Would you rather have our sixth round picks (Hardy, Pike, and Gettis) more than our top three picks (Clausen, Lafell, Edwards)?

Gettis and Hardy are bigger fan favorites than the top three picks. I'm glad to have 5 of the 6. I hate Clausen. I'll leave it at that.

If you answered "yes" to these questions, you may have identified a key problem area in the Panther organization and a reason that this draft, the most important in Panther history, has contributed to the lack of success this season.

NOW, how is Hurney doing?

I'll put the blame on lazy, uninspired coaching and the cutting of important veterans before I blame Hurney. Hurney's not the best, but we could definitely do a lot worse.

[Baschski]

The Otah/Stewart move was actually brilliant, I'd say. It brought us from a poo-show of a running game to one of the best running teams in the NFL instantly. Yes, D-Will's emergence has helped, but you're kidding yourself if he think D-Will produces like he has the past three years without Stewart around.

[Baschski]

Also, it's nice how all those criticizing Hurney conveniently ignore how outstanding our drafts have been in later rounds. What team gets as much value out of late round picks as we do?

[House]

Defend him then. Don't forget the most significant moves (or failures to move) over the past 2-3 years:

1. Jake Delhomme contract

2. Julus Peppers, the entire saga

3. Drafting an injured RB that is still fighting potentially career-threatening problems relating to that injury. (I agree that he had a good year and Hurney had medical advice, so I give him this one. However, I think he was drafted with the 13th pick and he was going under the knife--risky.)

4. Trading a future first rounder and a second for a first round RIGHT tackle with an injury history. (Otah is awesome when he is in, but if you give criticism to Clausen without considering the other variables, humor me here)

5. Trading a first rounder for an undersized DE from Florida State, a school that has had little luck placing successful DEs in the NFL--in other words, DEs from FSU are busts. Hurney has a history of taking the draft's fallers, something that has not always panned out).

6. Trading picks for Louis Leonard an Tank Tlyer. You might say, "we had no choice." Exactly. Knowing when to release or trade players is just as important as knowing when to pick or who to sign. Lewis and Kemoeatu were done. How was DT addressed? Hayden.

7. Drafting Clausen or any QB was a result of the Delhomme fiasco. Did it occur to anyone that the QB who beat us 2 games ago was being paid by the Panthers more than the Browns?

I am sorry, but I don't see reason to sing Hurney's praises. He may have had it once, but for the past two years, he has done little to make us better. Sure I have the advantage of hindsight, but anyone who thinks Hurney is beyond negative criticism is naive.

Hurney is not perfect, he has made his fair share of bad decisions. The Jake extension for example though, has been acknowledged as an organizational decision to re-pay Jake for past successes under a sub-standard contract. This is a stupid reason to give someone a fat contract and a mistake the organization will probably never make again.

However on the whole, Hurney has been very good with the cap and manipulating it to fit our needs. Drafting is a complete crapshoot, there may be some science to the madness and you can usually make an informed decision but no one really knows what a 20 something kid is going to do in the pro's once he has been given millions of dollars.

So many things go into drafting and no two variables ever create the same circumstance or player. Also idiocy runs rampant during the draft and it is catching. Just last year there were a lot of people, professional draftniks and people on this board alike, that thought McCoy would be as good or better than Suh in the pro's. People were saying stupid poo like "the difference between the two is not that big". It started as whispers and by the draft it was full blown fact. Stupidity was once again ruling the day.

On the large though, Hurney has done a good job. The three worst things you can say about him is that he has not been able to find a late round DT gem, he never drafted a QB (mostly because his HC didn't want one and his system didn't require him too), and the last two years he has made some questionable trades up into the draft for players that are projects.

As far as FA, this one is once again a crapshoot more than most people probably realize and is largely based on pro-scouting personel decisions. Honestly the only FA's that Hurney gave big contracts too in the last few years were Kemo, Wahle, and Hartwig. Hartwig was the only one that was a complete waste. While he hasn't been hitting Home Runs in FA, he hasn't been abysmal in this aspect either. Big name FA work out far less than people actually want to admit. Look at Peppers, Moss, and Haynesworth as examples.

Overall, while I wouldn't say Hurney is the best GM in the NFL but I wouldn't say that there is a dire need to replace him and that anyone we got would or could do a better job than he has.

[thefuzz]

Overall I give him a C, maybe a C+. That is average, and that is what this team has done under he and Fox, been average.

As of late, I give him a D-. Not quite failure (Matt Millen), but pretty close (1-11).

This is a what have you done for me lately league.