Anyone Still Want to Defend Clausen?

[rayzor]

lot of excuses for clausen in this thread. lot of blame for things not totally under his control either.

what i would like to know is how many people are convinced that clausen is the QB that this team needs to build around? because, that is what it is going to take to pass up on luck...being convinced without a shadow of a doubt that clausen is the real deal. if he isn't and we pass up on luck (or newton, for that matter), then this franchise and it's fans will be kicking itself for a long time.

[Matthias]

Now we know why Clausen fell to the second round. It scares me to think our GM actually wanted to trade up to get him. I'm glad teams didn't pay us any attention in that regard, and hopefully Richardson is going to clean house after the season.

[bigdog10]

The thing that pisses me off the most about Clausen is his inability to stay in the pocket and step up into his throws.

When a guy gets within 3 yards of him, he's looking for a way out of the pocket. This can't be taught. I'd much rather have a guy who will stand tall in the pocket even when it is collapsing around him and wait for a reciever to get open, than a guy who looks to roll out of it at the first sign of distress.

The perfect example of this is the adjustment that Vick has made. Vick was always criticized for looking to run away from pressure first, instead of standing in the pocket and letting his recievers work for a second longer.

I know vick to clausen isn't the greatest comparison because vick is by far a better athlete, however the premise is the same.

[Fiz]

everyone listen to this song it rules and will cheer you up

[House]

Watching the game again, our OL is BAD. Especially on 3rd down blitz recognition.

The Seahawks blitz from the right, every lineman we have is turned in the other direction trying to block the two guys coming from that side while 5 guys run right by them from behind.

[communist]

Now we know why Clausen fell to the second round. It scares me to think our GM actually wanted to trade up to get him. I'm glad teams didn't pay us any attention in that regard, and hopefully Richardson is going to clean house after the season.

he fell b/c of some character issues not b/c he was bad at notre dame.

normally, i would go for a franchise QB in the draft...but you have already drafted a QB very high...switch to westcoast offense, trade a little bit down, get some picks like the patriots and fix your lines.

you are, just like my niners, way too bad to think of a new QB in the first place and a consequantial improvement from that...you will kill luck with that o-line. even your running game doesn't work, those circumstances scream for a rebuild, beginning in the trenches.

your biggest problem is the d-line, by far...your olbs seem to suck, too.

oh, i see that you traded your 2nd-rounder away...very smart. you have to trade down, you just have to.

[DR_DIGH]

Clausen's play consists of running back 15 yards after the snap and either

A: Throwing it to the line of scrimmage

B: Throwing it to the bench

C: Getting sacked (which almost always leads to a fumble)

D: Throwing it square into the defender's chest.

[Urrymonster]

I am not even going to to pretend to defend him, however some people posting on here just plain aren't watching him and are blamming him for things which simply aren't true.

No one is 'defending' him. No one. People need to realise that some are actually just looking for some kind of improvement in him so that we can see one way or not if Luck is a necessity. As Rayzor said, we need to be convinced one way or the other about him before the draft, otherwise we could end up making a huge mistake.

[Matthias]

he fell b/c of some character issues not b/c he was bad at notre dame.

normally, i would go for a franchise QB in the draft...but you have already drafted a QB very high...switch to westcoast offense, trade a little bit down, get some picks like the patriots and fix your lines.

you are, just like my niners, way too bad to think of a new QB in the first place and a consequantial improvement from that...you will kill luck with that o-line. even your running game doesn't work, those circumstances scream for a rebuild, beginning in the trenches.

your biggest problem is the d-line, by far...your olbs seem to suck, too.

oh, i see that you traded your 2nd-rounder away...very smart. you have to trade down, you just have to.

I agree that we should trade down, but only for a Herschel Walker/Ricky Williams deal. Once we have that, we draft Ryan Mallett, along with other much needed depth at other positions.

[House]

I am not even going to to pretend to defend him, however some people posting on here just plain aren't watching him and are blamming him for things which simply aren't true.

No one is 'defending' him. No one. People need to realise that some are actually just looking for some kind of improvement in him so that we can see one way or not if Luck is a necessity. As Rayzor said, we need to be convinced one way or the other about him before the draft, otherwise we could end up making a huge mistake.

This is what concerns me.

As was talked about before, last year the Panthers had one of the best OL's in the league, suddenly they are horrible. Jimmy has no time and when he does he is having a hard time recognizing it because it only happens about 1 out of 8 snaps.

Our offensive scheme is not very "rookie friendly", especially if the OL is not blocking worth a damn.

A lot of Jimmy's problems are problems that can be fixed by good coaching. We have a QB coach that has helped such prolific names as Brady Quinn, Dereck Anderson, and ruined Jake Delhomme. Our HC is in "not giving a poo" mode because he is a lame duck.

Luck looks like he has the tools to be a really good to great QB, but so did Jimmy. With as many holes as this team has using the #1 pick on a QB is not going to be the wise choice unless they are CONVINCED that Jimmy doesn't have it and no coach or scheme can "fix" him.

Right now, drafting Luck does us no good except to make the fan base feel good for an off-season but we will most likely be right back here next season. Unless the OL comes back to form and the scheme is changed and in that case there is a good chance that Jimmy could succeed.

I am not saying that Jimmy is a good QB or that we shouldn't draft Luck if we have the chance. Just trying to be realistic and realize what is best for the team. It is a shitty situation and it is going to be a make or break decision for the new regime or Hurney if he is still here.

If you draft Luck and Jimmy succeeds under a new coach, then you wasted the #1 pick on a player that you don't need and set your franchise back. If you don't draft Luck and Jimmy still sucks then you set your franchise back.

[Fiz]

I really think the communication problem is that so many people just attached themselves to Jimmy once he was drafted that they're not looking rationally at this. He's the first young, relatively high pick QB they've likely ever cheered for (because 1995 might as well be a lifetime ago) and gosh darnit he's going to succeed because I convinced myself all summer and fall that he was going to succeed.

Human minds evolved this really interesting trait to doubt evidence when it disproves a belief. So a person who was sold on Jimmy is going to doubt what they see. Surely it has to be because of something ELSE going on with the team, he's just not getting a fair shot!

[panthers55]

lot of excuses for clausen in this thread. lot of blame for things not totally under his control either.

what i would like to know is how many people are convinced that clausen is the QB that this team needs to build around? because, that is what it is going to take to pass up on luck...being convinced without a shadow of a doubt that clausen is the real deal. if he isn't and we pass up on luck (or newton, for that matter), then this franchise and it's fans will be kicking itself for a long time.

I think that is really the issue. We haven't had a top 10 draft pick since 2002 and we have watched other teams draft their franchise guy and prosper because of it. It is our turn and we need to find the guy who can lead us for the next 10 years. Right now Clausen has had 6 games and has a passer rating of 55 and a YPA of 5. That isn't enough to say that he definitely is the one. We need Luck (who I don't think is coming out if Harbaugh stays) or more likely Newton who in my estimation can be our Randall Cunningham/Ben Roethlisburger. We have to draft a guy who can be a franchise quarterback.

I am fine with keeping Clausen and drafting another guy. One or the other will pan out and the other can be the backup or be traded in a year or two. Seems to be a no brainer.

[SCP]

I think that is really the issue. We haven't had a top 10 draft pick since 2002 and we have watched other teams draft their franchise guy and prosper because of it. It is our turn and we need to find the guy who can lead us for the next 10 years. Right now Clausen has had 6 games and has a passer rating of 55 and a YPA of 5. That isn't enough to say that he definitely is the one. We need Luck (who I don't think is coming out if Harbaugh stays) or more likely Newton who in my estimation can be our Randall Cunningham/Ben Roethlisburger. We have to draft a guy who can be a franchise quarterback.

I am fine with keeping Clausen and drafting another guy. One or the other will pan out and the other can be the backup or be traded in a year or two. Seems to be a no brainer.

To me, taking a risk on a #1 "Sure Thing" draft pick (per every analyst in the world) like Luck who could potentially turn out to be a bust is a no brainer.

5 years down the road it would be a hell of a lot better looking at a #1 overall pick who didn't pan out than sitting here watching the guy you could have taken, but instead passed on because of Clausen, make Pro Bowls in San Fran or Buffalo or where ever.

The downside of not drafting him (or Newton) far outweighs any perceived downside of drafting him.

[Proudiddy]

Does he really? Lets look at some rookie QB stats...

2010

Sam Bradford - 221 yds/game. 1,4 TD/game. 0.9 TO/game Comp% 60,6

Colt McCoy - 195 yds/game. 0.6 TD/game. 0.6 TO/game Comp% 63.8

2009

Matthew Stafford - 226 yds/game. 1.3 TD/game. 2.1 TO/game Comp& 53.3

Mark Sanchez - 162 yds/game. 1 TD/game. 1,5 TO/game Comp% 53,8

Josh Freeman - 206 yds/game. 1.1 TD/game. 2.2 TO/game Comp% 50

2008

Matt Ryan - 215 yds/game. 1.1 TD/game. 0.7 TO/game Comp% 61.1

Joe Flacco - 185 yds/game. 1 TD/game. 0.8 TO/game Comp% 60

2007

Trent Edwards - 181 yds/game. 0.8 TD/game. 0.9 TO /game. Comp% 56.1

2006

Vince Young - 170 yds/game. 1.4 TD/game. 1.2 TO/game. Comp% 51.5

Matt Leinart - 231 yds/game. 1.2 TD/game. 1.3 TO/game. Comp% 56.3

Jay Cutler - 200 yds/game. 1.8 TD/game. 1.4 TO/game. Comp% 59.1

JIMMY CLAUSEN - 176 yds/game. 0.1 TD/game. 1.4 TO/game. Comp% 50.

Fair to say Clausen is not doing a pretty good job managing the offence. Only 1 have fewer yds. NONE have less TD and NONE have a worse comp% Only 3 have more TO but they all have more TD and a better comp%. On top of that Clausen have had 8 fumbles in 6 starts so the TO could be much higher if not for some LUCK.

All in all Clausen have put on the worst rookie QB play in the last 5 years. Not one single stat show any type of imrovement over the season and even though that would be very marginal. If he keep up that tempo he will be an NFL QB in about 25 years.

And THAT is the one you will put as the reason not to draft maybe the best QB talent since Manning? Come on??? Really? Seriously? STOP!!!

I think it's fair to say, that's a good list. Yes, stats CAN be misleading, but if we're talking strictly about game management that TD/INT ratio is pretty much all you need. Clausen is not doing a good job of managing the offense, and additionally, when you have trouble with simple things like taking a snap, that doesn't bode well for the things that follow.

I'm not trying to rip the guy apart limb from limb, I'm just asking, "who can defend" him now? As in, reasoning for him to be the starting QB of the future. No one can (or at least should, as many are still making excuses).

Not gonna run down everything in the post but two things i wanna comment on. Moore definitely took the shots downfield but you know with the way Moore passes those deep balls he hangs them up there high in the air and its really a turnover waiting to happen. I like Moore but his arm strength on those deep balls are very questionable and im sure most everyone could agree on that.

Yup clausen did look better in preseason, along with Matt Moore and the rest of the team in whole. But watching Jimmy get the starting nod, then benched again, then thrown back out there I think he is doing a decent job for a rookie. He may check down alot I agree with that definitely but again in my opinion he does a good job of managing the offense for a rookie. Watching week to week he looks like he is looking more and more comfortable during the pre-snap, after the snap the o-line kinda screws over any Qb we got.

If you watch all of MM's games, from what I've seen, those balls he threw like you're talking about (like the first INT in the Giants game that was directed towards Barnidge IIRC) were purposely floated or 'finessed.'

I don't think Moore could throw it 60 yards, but there's a difference between chucking it deep and throwing with velocity. When considering arm strength, you gotta look at velocity versus yardage. A lot of people can throw a ball 50 yards, but it hangs up forever... But, guys like Favre can throw it 60 yards on a line with speed. Moore can't throw it super deep, but he didn't try to often. I think his max without losing a lot velocity is about 50 yards from the hail marys I've seen him throw.

My point is, Moore can't throw it as far as a lot of QBs yardage wise, but I never saw him lack in the velocity dept. Within his yardage range, he could make any throw on the field (including the all important measure of a QB - the out route). Moore does NOT lack arm strength in terms of velocity. So those questionable throws you are talking about appeared to me to be on purpose. He was trying to make something happen that wasn't there.

The Barnidge INT against the Giants wasn't even 30 yards deep IIRC, yet he floated it... That was well within his range to throw with velocity, yet he floated it, and it looked like he did so to try and drop it between 3 defenders. Guys take velocity off the ball all the time to drop it behind LBs and in front of DBs in zone coverage. This is what I'm convinced he was doing. If it works, you're all over ESPN and everyone is talking about you. If it doesn't, you suck and everyone wonders what you were trying to do.

Agree with this man!!! (Changed the Delhomme part a bit though)

Thanks for agreeing with all the other stuff, but I'm gonnna have to ask you to approach this objectively. Again, he wasn't a Hall of Famer, elite level QB, but he was good. At his best, REALLY good.

Again, taking into account last year, playing almost a full season with a 59 QB rating to finish... He still holds an 81 QB rating.

Guess what? That's good for 46th best all-time in the history of the NFL.

And before you say it's because he had Smitty and required less skill as he could just lob it up to him... His QB rating is better than:

Warren Moon

Fran Tarkenton

Boomer Esiason

Dan Fouts

Johnny Unitas

Feel free to thank him for his great contributions to our franchise and being a stand-up guy on and off the field. I'll never understand the hate for him lol. (not directed at anyone in particular, just a general statement to our fanbase)

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

This is what concerns me.

As was talked about before, last year the Panthers had one of the best OL's in the league, suddenly they are horrible. Jimmy has no time and when he does he is having a hard time recognizing it because it only happens about 1 out of 8 snaps.

Our offensive scheme is not very "rookie friendly", especially if the OL is not blocking worth a damn.

A lot of Jimmy's problems are problems that can be fixed by good coaching. We have a QB coach that has helped such prolific names as Brady Quinn, Dereck Anderson, and ruined Jake Delhomme. Our HC is in "not giving a poo" mode because he is a lame duck.

Luck looks like he has the tools to be a really good to great QB, but so did Jimmy. With as many holes as this team has using the #1 pick on a QB is not going to be the wise choice unless they are CONVINCED that Jimmy doesn't have it and no coach or scheme can "fix" him.

Right now, drafting Luck does us no good except to make the fan base feel good for an off-season but we will most likely be right back here next season. Unless the OL comes back to form and the scheme is changed and in that case there is a good chance that Jimmy could succeed.

I am not saying that Jimmy is a good QB or that we shouldn't draft Luck if we have the chance. Just trying to be realistic and realize what is best for the team. It is a shitty situation and it is going to be a make or break decision for the new regime or Hurney if he is still here.

If you draft Luck and Jimmy succeeds under a new coach, then you wasted the #1 pick on a player that you don't need and set your franchise back. If you don't draft Luck and Jimmy still sucks then you set your franchise back.

If we drafted Luck, and he turns out to be a GREAT QB, say consistently among the Top 10 best in the league... It doesn't matter what happened to Jimmy. Jimmy could stay here and ride the bench, or as hard is it is to currently imagine, making a few Pro Bowls somewhere else (although I don't see him doing anything close to this)... It wouldn't matter what Jimmy did.

And again, while many people seem to continue to think of him as a 1st rounder for some reason, Jimmy was a 2nd round pick. If we draft Luck with the 1st pick of the draft, those are two completely different and unrelated scenarios. 2nd rounders fail all the time and are much smaller investments than the #1 overall pick, so there's not much of a comparison. We have to take Luck is he's there. If we don't, this franchise will just demonstrate how much we embrace mediocrity and obscurity.

I really think the communication problem is that so many people just attached themselves to Jimmy once he was drafted that they're not looking rationally at this. He's the first young, relatively high pick QB they've likely ever cheered for (because 1995 might as well be a lifetime ago) and gosh darnit he's going to succeed because I convinced myself all summer and fall that he was going to succeed.

Human minds evolved this really interesting trait to doubt evidence when it disproves a belief. So a person who was sold on Jimmy is going to doubt what they see. Surely it has to be because of something ELSE going on with the team, he's just not getting a fair shot!

Good posts by House and Fiz.

I'd just like to summarize, I didn't make this thread to bash Clausen, although that tends to happen when I post during or directly after a game when the emotions are still going. But, I wish the best for the guy. No, his future isn't set in stone as a career backup or journeyman QB yet, but my point is, what we've seen so far isn't promising.

SO, I don't see how we can pass up on Luck if he comes out. I would honestly question the front office and the direction of this franchise if after what we've seen, they pass up on Luck. Clausen does not appear to be a franchise QB despite what many have tried to argue - all the evidence suggests otherwise.