CBA 2011 Thread

[twylyght]

These are all relatively naive comments.

First of all these are not just employees, these are a product and an asset which is pretty rare in the business world. A better analogy would be your rainmakers in a sales firm and even that is not exactly it.

In any company when you are dealing with senior people...if they are unhappy you listen. As the owner you never say f you you are an employee deal with it. You negotiate.

The owners have leverage but believe me they are nearly just as terrified of a lockout. Especially owners like say Jerry Jones who just financed a new stadium. Or younger owners who are truly interested in the long term viability of the NFL which would take a huge hit in a lockout.

A lockout would mean lower ticket sales, lower visibility and eventually a lesser TV deal.

Very few players are just absurdly rich ganstas who throw all their money away. the average NFL career is 3 years. If you exclude kickers and Qbs it goes under 3

So before you make business analogies make sure it includes a company where your career (not just your job, your career) will likely be over in 2-3 years and you have an odds on chance of injury.

And now this company is saying your hours are going up by 10%, your pay is going down and we don't care about your medical expenses which are now more likely.

If you can't see why the players want to negotiate you are delusional.

If I am an employer that has doled out an ~50% increase in collective salary in the past 5 years in a declining economy, I am less likely to entertain this kind of talk. I blame the NFLPA more for allowing a top-heavy divvying of salaries amongst its members which leaves its blue-collar joes out in the cold when the after-NFL lives begin.

What's being done here by Muwawe is an agent tactic of negotiations. He is ginning up public animus to place more pressure on ownership to bring the compromise line closer to the NFLPA side of the scale. It may work in the short term, but if players within the union begin to question how the funds are currently being divvied, then it could seriously backfire.

Everyone has something to lose with a lockout. However, to reward a precedent that is fiscally unsustainable for the next two decades is business suicide. It isn't the players' jobs to necessarily understand it, but it is the jobs of their representative(s) to walk that line. So far... to any reasonable person with a comprehensive view of the facts, the union is asking for something that will cripple the NFL for a short-term modest gain in finances.

[Happy Panther]

If I am an employer that has doled out an ~50% increase in collective salary in the past 5 years in a declining economy, I am less likely to entertain this kind of talk. I blame the NFLPA more for allowing a top-heavy divvying of salaries amongst its members which leaves its blue-collar joes out in the cold when the after-NFL lives begin.

What's being done here by Muwawe is an agent tactic of negotiations. He is ginning up public animus to place more pressure on ownership to bring the compromise line closer to the NFLPA side of the scale. It may work in the short term, but if players within the union begin to question how the funds are currently being divvied, then it could seriously backfire.

Everyone has something to lose with a lockout. However, to reward a precedent that is fiscally unsustainable for the next two decades is business suicide. It isn't the players' jobs to necessarily understand it, but it is the jobs of their representative(s) to walk that line. So far... to any reasonable person with a comprehensive view of the facts, the union is asking for something that will cripple the NFL for a short-term modest gain in finances.

Yes that is all right. Absolutely true. Except that i thought the union were simply saying they would love the same agreement they had before which the owners agreed to (some would say foolishly) at the last negotiations.

I would not put much weight in anything either side says right now. they both have a duty to present a tough stance because they both know they have great leverage.

As far as I am concerned this is North Korea today or Cold War Russia in the 70s. We all have a bunch of nukes that could destroy everyone so lets wave them around.

At the same time lets be scared as poo of losing a damn good thing. And we are the weaker force.

I have zero doubt there will be football as usual next year.

[Happy Panther]

That being said, the point I was making was that citing the example you provided of an NFL player being paid the league minimum for 2 years (which would be a little under 1 million dollars), a person with any logic of money would be able to save/invest that money to take care of themselves and their family.

The league minimum for 2 years would not be $1M, It would be around $650,000. With no job after your 2 years no you probably can't just take care of your family for the rest of their lives

This is for the top say 1/1,000 of all football talent in the world in any given year

As a top quartile (hell lets face it probably bottom quartile) finance guy in the world I can make $100,000 - $500,000 or more for the next 20 or 30 years.

Would you rather be me or the 2 year NFL guy? I have no idea but i don't kid myself into thinking all NFL players have a sweet deal.

of course everyone follows their dream and nobody will ever fault themselves for doing so.

[DR_DIGH]

The league minimum for 2 years would not be $1M, It would be around $650,000. With no job after your 2 years no you probably can't just take care of your family for the rest of their lives

This is for the top say 1/1,000 of all football talent in the world in any given year

As a top quartile (hell lets face it probably bottom quartile) finance guy in the world I can make $100,000 - $500,000 or more for the next 20 or 30 years.

Would you rather be me or the 2 year NFL guy? I have no idea but i don't kid myself into thinking all NFL players have a sweet deal.

of course everyone follows their dream and nobody will ever fault themselves for doing so.

I didn't say it would be $1M, I said it would be a little under $1M. We all handle our finances different so I can understand the disagreement we are having here. I tend to lean more towards investing principles to make that $650,000 last after their 2 years are up. If you don't live the lavish lifestyle of a typical NFL player (mansion, 5 cars, motorcycles, boats, etc.) and choose to live a modest lifestyle like the rest of the middle class, I see no reason why someone couldn't pull it off. But let's not kid ourselves, those guys will probably hunt for a job somewhere else (if they're smart) because what responsible adult will just sit at home with nothing to do for the rest of their lives? I would go crazy and would have to start looking for something to further myself with.

[jarhead]

Why can't the owners just hire a bunch of no names to play football? If they could go through with that you would never this happen again.

Belicheck does it every year and it works in NE

[Happy Panther]

I tend to lean more towards investing principles to make that $650,000 last after their 2 years are up. If you don't live the lavish lifestyle of a typical NFL player (mansion, 5 cars, motorcycles, boats, etc.) and choose to live a modest lifestyle like the rest of the middle class,

The typical NFL player doesn't live like this. I used to deliver pizzas to a bunch of the players. Lamar Latham had a $500,000 or less house in the Peninsula Club. Dante Wesley lived in a condo that probably went for $150k at best. Kerry Collins house in South Charlotte wasn't all that impressive. You are projecting what you see on cribs to every guy in the NFL.

$650,000 after taxes and living expenses is at best $300,000. You can invest all you want but this isn't a retirement vehicle. the average investment banker is doing much better

[MadHatter]

The typical NFL player doesn't live like this. I used to deliver pizzas to a bunch of the players. Lamar Latham had a $500,000 or less house in the Peninsula Club. Dante Wesley lived in a condo that probably went for $150k at best. Kerry Collins house in South Charlotte wasn't all that impressive. You are projecting what you see on cribs to every guy in the NFL.

$650,000 after taxes and living expenses is at best $300,000. You can invest all you want but this isn't a retirement vehicle. the average investment banker is doing much better

But, should a 25 yo person who worked for 2 years be set up for life? Hell no.

They, like the rest of us, can work for the next 40 years.

They all went to college and had an opportunity to get a good education. If they chose to fug off and no study....thus having no real marketable skill outside of football...that is not my problem.

[Happy Panther]

But, should a 25 yo person who worked for 2 years be set up for life? Hell no.

They, like the rest of us, can work for the next 40 years.

They all went to college and had an opportunity to get a good education. If they chose to f**k off and no study....thus having no real marketable skill outside of football...that is not my problem.

Just correcting his assumptions. I'm not suggesting all NFL players should be able to retire after a couple years.

I do think NFL players should be concerned about guys getting hurt in the NFL and not having access to health insurance afterwards. Not the peyton mannings of the world either, i mean the two year guy who made a few bucks and had 4 concussions.

I don't know what the solution is, but it should be a concern with a longer season, a more violent game, and now likely less pay.

[DR_DIGH]

The typical NFL player doesn't live like this. I used to deliver pizzas to a bunch of the players. Lamar Latham had a $500,000 or less house in the Peninsula Club. Dante Wesley lived in a condo that probably went for $150k at best. Kerry Collins house in South Charlotte wasn't all that impressive. You are projecting what you see on cribs to every guy in the NFL.

$650,000 after taxes and living expenses is at best $300,000. You can invest all you want but this isn't a retirement vehicle. the average investment banker is doing much better

This right here tells me that you and I are from two totally different backgrounds. If you're calling this middle class then I can definitely see why we can't agree on a number here. I'm trusting your judgement on the actual house/condo prices. The 150k would be the number I am comfortable with as an example of an "upper middle" class home purchase. That is only, as I'm not familiar with condos, if this is owning instead of renting. You'd be better off owning instead of throwing your money away renting something that expensive.

[DR_DIGH]

Just correcting his assumptions. I'm not suggesting all NFL players should be able to retire after a couple years.

I do think NFL players should be concerned about guys getting hurt in the NFL and not having access to health insurance afterwards. Not the peyton mannings of the world either, i mean the two year guy who made a few bucks and had 4 concussions.

I don't know what the solution is, but it should be a concern with a longer season, a more violent game, and now likely less pay.

Oh and thanks for "correcting" me.

Just because you have a different opinion doesn't mean that I'm wrong and you're right.

[Anybodyhome]

"...guys getting hurt in the NFL and not having access to health insurance afterwards."

The vast majority of working people in this country don't have health insurance available to them by their former employer after they no longer work there. Why should NFL players be any different? They do have access to health care, just like the rest of us. It's called COBRA or go find your own independent coverage.

There was a study done in 2005 that estimated a cost of $16.2B (yes, that's billion) just to fund health care for current players and those who entered the league today from that point forward for coverage until they are all 65. This does not include any players who were active up until the date of the study. Just to fund the current players' health care costs would cost $3.1B, which equates to the total NFL salary in 2005. In other words, every player would have to play for free in 2005 just to fund their health care for next 40 years. Can you guess the answer?

I have to admit, if I were asked if I would work for free for one year and this would guarantee health care for the next 40 years, I'd seriously consider it.

Estimates based upon today's dollar value and the always rising cost of health suggest a cost in excess of $40B to retroactively provide health care for every player who was ever in the NFL, current NFL and future NFL players. If the NFLPA doesn't pick up that tab, who do you think will? Every fan who buys a ticket will be kicking up to the players insurance.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-lifetimeinsurance092607

[ThPantherFan]

Here's my 2 cents on this. An average worker, that goes to the games, pays for the beer and burger, etc., makes an average of 35,000 dollars (average salary in NC) salary a year. He didn't start at 35,000 and he will probably end his average 40 years of working a bit higher, so if you factor a 30 year span of working to average this out, he will make slightly over 1 million. To retire he must invest what money he can towards his golden years. Most of the time that is through a work pension or Social Security. He must pay for his families health care too.

A bottom tier football player makes about 400,000 per year. In 3 years (isn't that close to the average playing time?) he would have earned more than the guy in the stands paying his money to watch would make in his lifetime. The bottom tier players have less of a likely hood to get injured than most fans (at least my opinion). The top players have more exposure, thus more of a chance of injury. They are compensated well for their efforts.

Where the NFL should concentrate efforts to help players is to give them counseling on money management before the first paycheck. Most players run out and spend their money on fancy and expensive cars, buy momma a house and/or have a lavish party to show off for their friends. Also, most rookies are required to pay for a dinner for most or all of the team and usually will get dooped for a scandalous amount of money. The players will waste the first paychecks before they realize this is their future.

Players that do stick around for multiple years will invest their money and can live quite well (as do the family members) on their investments. The owners are making a fair return on their investment too. JR's expenditures for the stadium is probably less than what we know. Every PSL owner had to fork out 2000 dollars per seat, just to be able to buy tickets. The tickets have to be purchased at whatever price, or you will forfeit your seat. You know have a noose around your neck and JR has a steady stream of money, whether you come to the game or not. JR may not have used tax dollars to build the stadium (probably if you look close enough there was) but he gets a nice tax break.

The only people that are hurt with this are the fans. If they strike, not play, what ever you want to call it, I will not give one more penny to the game. That is the way I can let them know I do not agree with their decision. Will my little protest bother JR or any player? No. However, you take 70,000 fans with the same mindset and JR is not getting his 5 bucks a beer or a player is not getting his percent of jersey sales, they will listen then.

[Easyt65]

I have not watched more than an inning of a Pro Baseball game since the ball players struck and cost this country a World Series. The NHL was riding the wave when they struck...and they have not been the same since. If the NFL strikes and costs the season, I'll become a HUGE college football fan.

18-Game Season:

I can see it if the owners/league converts the last 2 pre-season games into regular season games. The starters hardly play, and the scrubs fight for a roster spot during those games. In exchange for losing two 'audition games', allow teams to expand the number of players who can be on their 'Practice Squad'.

-- The Commissioner shot himself in the foot on this issue by taking the ations he has done to 'protect players'. Extending the season to 18 games is NOT in the best interest of proteting the players/the players' best interest.

-- Perhaps the 18 game season can be a bargaining chip for getting. lets say, the Rookie Salary CAP.

[Anybodyhome]

Adam Schefter on Mike & Mike this morning said unequivocally there will be a 2011 NFL season- but nobody knows how many games will be lost due to the lockout. He could not see either side going more than 2-3 games into the regular season before something gives.

He also stated without hesitation, pause for thought or otherwise, there will be an 18-game schedule on the board for the 2012 season.

With respect to the upcoming draft and how it relates to a lockout? He said it will make absolutely no difference if the kid decides to come out this year or next, the simple fact is there will be a rookie salary cap.