Rookie Report Vs Browns

[CRA]

Clausen's lack of TDs also shows a lack in WR making plays after the catch, if you look strictly at the numbers without looking at the circumstances involved during the game.

Best case scenario: Clausen develops into a student of the game much like Peyton Manning. This doesn't mean Clausen is the next Manning, but in my opinion the better his pre-snaps reads get, the more freedom he's going to be allowed to have to change plays at the line (coupled with added confidence).

If he starts changing plays and gets worked by the defense, that's a whole other story.

I disagree. Carolina runs a play action offense. Bottom line is you have to look to go downfield. He doesn't. A TD pass on 166 pass attempts and it was a freebie. Moore (who was garbage this year) still was able to generate some offense. He averaged a TD every 20 something pass attempts. WRs aren't the problem.

[Urrymonster]

1 pass attempt by Clausen that was farther than 9 yards downfield. That is nuts. Based on the circumstances of that 1 throw......pretty much forced him hand to do it.

Don't you mean 5 with 2 completions?

When you are being pressured every other throw, it's hard to look beyond your first read...

[TheRealDeal]

That is all you have to say, pick out one typo?

Personally I would have thought looking at the break down of Clausen's passing would have opened some eyes, especially seeing how much pressure he was under (45% of drop backs). All 3 sacks and one pressure came from our running backs attempts at blocking, so it's safe to say our OLine is not the only thing that has had it's struggles this season.

When he wasn't under pressure he achieved this:

17 drop backs, 14/17 (82.4%), 167 yards (9.8 ypa), 107.6 QB rating

After looking into his season more and more it really looks like he is trying not to make mistakes and focusing on easier completions, not because he can't throw the deep ball, but because he realises that extending drives is more important to the team as a whole.

As fans we moan and moan about how our defence is on the field for too long, yet demand a more high risk passing game which will only cause more three and outs. Clausen (or Davidson) is actually focusing on just getting the next first down and then when the team needs it will he be more aggressive.

For the record the pass and catch to LaFell were fantastic plays from both. LaFell had two defenders drapped on him and Clausen picked a spot in front of him so that he was the ONLY player that could catch it. Yes LaFell had to get down low, but if Clausen threw to his body, it likely would have been picked off.

I would like to see a breakdown of passes <0,1-5,5-9,10-15,16-20,21+.

It's pretty telling that he only threw 1 pass over 20 yards and it was at the end. Also funny how you pick and choose stats to boost your case. Last game Clausen had two completions aimed over 10 yards, 2, two, dos. I can play your messed up stat game as well. Last game, nearly half of Clausen's completions were behind the line of scrimmage. Can you believe that? Almost half the time he was throwing it backwards.

Also, MM doesn't have the second lowest YPA. Don't make up lies to make your boy sound better or that it's not his fault.

[Carl Spackler]

1 pass attempt by Clausen that was farther than 9 yards downfield. That is nuts. Based on the circumstances of that 1 throw......pretty much forced him hand to do it.

He threw 5. Not one.

[Urrymonster]

I would like to see a breakdown of passes <0,1-5,5-9,10-15,16-20,21+.

It's pretty telling that he only threw 1 pass over 20 yards and it was at the end. Also funny how you pick and choose stats to boost your case. Last game Clausen had two completions aimed over 10 yards, 2, two, dos. I can play your messed up stat game as well. Last game, nearly half of Clausen's completions were behind the line of scrimmage. Can you believe that? Almost half the time he was throwing it backwards.

Also, MM doesn't have the second lowest YPA. Don't make up lies to make your boy sound better or that it's not his fault.

I have no 'case'. I have also given you a breakdown, what difference do 5 yard increments have over 10?

Personally I have been disappointed with our passing game as a whole so I don't really view Clausen as a saviour or failure. All you have done there is expose your lack of appreciation for statistical analysis and anything that disagrees with your point of view. I mean you basically decided I am an avid Clausen supporter based on his statistical performance

By the way Matt Moore DOES have the second lowest, it's 6 yards per attempt, tied with Kerry Collins & Sam Bradford. Remember that these stats also have plays that were made void due to penalties.

If you think I am picking and choosing, the let me know what you want in future games and I will try and accommodate.

Ps - The way you have jumped and tried to shoot me down is exactly why this board is a complete ****-fest at the moment. Grow up, calm down, read some opinions and actually discuss them.

[TheRealDeal]

I have no 'case'. I have also given you a breakdown, what difference do 5 yard increments have over 10?

Personally I have been disappointed with our passing game as a whole so I don't really view Clausen as a saviour or failure. All you have done there is expose your lack of appreciation for statistical analysis and anything that disagrees with your point of view. I mean you basically decided I am an avid Clausen supporter based on his statistical performance

By the way Matt Moore DOES have the second lowest, it's 6 yards per attempt, tied with Kerry Collins & Sam Bradford. Remember that these stats also have plays that were made void due to penalties.

It's not the stats that make you the homer, it's the way you interpret them, and also how you said Clausen put that ball to LaFell only where he could get it, we both know he doesn't have the accuracy to do that.

I want to see the increments in 5 yards because it is more informative than 10 yards. If he throws a pass 1 yard to Goodson it could be seen as a 10 yard pass and so on. The stats you gave show enough information to make someone believe Clausen has hope but they don't show enough detail to tell the real story.

Using pass attempts to bolster your argument is also invalid, unless you mention his completion percentage every time. Saying he threw it "deep" (over 10 yards) 5 times last game is only half the story. Saying he threw deep 5 times but only completed 2 is more accurate and complete.

All those stats tell me is that he really really likes to throw the ball backwards (44% of his completions) and he's very accurate when he does that but when he tries to move it just a little "downfield", his accuracy drops considerably to 40%. Maybe it's a good thing last game he only attempted 5 of those all game lol.

Do you have a link to where that info came from?

[CRA]

Don't you mean 5 with 2 completions?

When you are being pressured every other throw, it's hard to look beyond your first read...

yeah, you are right. He had 2 passes that went further than 9 yards.

Again, pressure has little to do w/ it. That is what he looks to do. We have seen Jimmy w/o pressure and he simply chooses to go short.

[TheRealDeal]

yeah, you are right. He had 2 passes that went further than 9 yards.

Again, pressure has little to do w/ it. That is what he looks to do. We have seen Jimmy w/o pressure and he simply chooses to go short.

One of my main gripes with "advanced statistics" is that you can interpret them to mean whatever you want. Clausen supporters see these and say "poor guy never had a chance." Others watch the games and know he likes to check down even without pressure. Sometimes he even likes to flee the pocket without pressure so it skews the stats and doesn't tell an accurate story.

During the game last night they were comparing ATL Vick to Philly Vick. In ATL, Vick would reach the top of his drop then immediately look to scramble to the left thus minimizing his chances of hitting an open receiver downfield. They then showed Philly Vick and when he hit the top of his drop he stood tall in the pocket looking downfield to deliver the pass and took a shot in the chest. (KT you see that, just used Vick as a positive example)

Unfortunately, Jimmy is like ATL Vick right now, without the arm strength, wheels, and athleticism.

[calebdv]

will VT come out of the tunnel near sec 107 saturday night ? sorry to put this here just cant post a new thread and i want to know soon if anyone knows can you tell me please ? and please dont bitch me out for posting this here its not worth it

[Urrymonster]

It's not the stats that make you the homer, it's the way you interpret them, and also how you said Clausen put that ball to LaFell only where he could get it, we both know he doesn't have the accuracy to do that.

:eek:

So if Clausen doesn't have the accuracy to put it there, how did it get there?

Stop calling people homers. I have no association with Clausen, think he has performed rookie-like and thought he was a complete prima-dona before the draft. On the flip side I thought we got good value for where he was drafted, I realise he is a rookie before trying to disregard him, recnogise that he's actually pretty hard working.

I have no problem recognising that his first few games were pretty damn terrible, I am more interested in how he progresses from there. You know, to see if there is anything in there at all.

I want to see the increments in 5 yards because it is more informative than 10 yards. If he throws a pass 1 yard to Goodson it could be seen as a 10 yard pass and so on. The stats you gave show enough information to make someone believe Clausen has hope but they don't show enough detail to tell the real story.

So essentially what is the difference if he throws it to Goodson or Smitty 1 yard beyond the scrimmage line, or 9? They are all short passes, some dump off's, others designed plays. If you can find anywhere that breaks down passing plays that finely then I would be impressed.

For the record though, passes at the LoS would be under the '<0 yards' section

Using pass attempts to bolster your argument is also invalid, unless you mention his completion percentage every time. Saying he threw it "deep" (over 10 yards) 5 times last game is only half the story. Saying he threw deep 5 times but only completed 2 is more accurate and complete.

Look at the post above the one I posted previously. I clearly mentioned throwing 5 completing 2. What something else? Read my initial post. It has them all listed with no opinions at all, because I knew if I put in opinions some would decide to focus on them rather than the facts.

All those stats tell me is that he really really likes to throw the ball backwards (44% of his completions) and he's very accurate when he does that but when he tries to move it just a little "downfield", his accuracy drops considerably to 40%. Maybe it's a good thing last game he only attempted 5 of those all game lol.

I do not deny that, but actually look at it for a second. He throws short passes, ok, how often does he get a chance to go long? Consider that he is being forced to move in the pocket every other snap...

Another thing. Against Tampa he threw 6 passes over 10 yards and completed 5 of them (2 over 20 yards). That's 83%... Still don't think he can throw downfield?

Do you have a link to where that info came from?

Why do you care? You seem pretty determined to make nothing of the stats and seem to be of the opinion that I have 'doctored' them to make a 'case' for Clausen.

[Urrymonster]

yeah, you are right. He had 2 passes that went further than 9 yards.

Again, pressure has little to do w/ it. That is what he looks to do. We have seen Jimmy w/o pressure and he simply chooses to go short.

Against Tampa 25% of his throws were over 10 yards.

In this game he only was pressured 8 times, where he completed 1 pass for 12 yards. So in a game where he was pressured less he throws more passes deeper, has a higher ypa and completes a higher percentage.

I'm not even invested in Clausen and yet I feel like I am defending him because some people are so blind to accepting that the guy might actually be improving. He had a long way to come from, but he is making slow progress...

[TheRealDeal]

:eek:

So if Clausen doesn't have the accuracy to put it there, how did it get there?

Why do you care? You seem pretty determined to make nothing of the stats and seem to be of the opinion that I have 'doctored' them to make a 'case' for Clausen.

Luck. With is 50% completion percentage I don't think he has the ability to throw it to a perfect spot downfield when he usually can't hit a wide open guy 10 yards away.

I want to see what else this site offers. I want to see what their definition of pressure is. I don't think you've doctored them at all. I think the way you've interpreted them is the issue. Like I've said a million times, stats really don't mean anything. They don't consider things like field position, sudden changes (picks, fumbles, etc), game situations so they are useless. Unless wherever you got them from does, then it would be interesting to see.

If you think Clausen played a good game then we will never see eye to eye no matter what stats you present me. If we weren't playing a Jake led team, no way that game is close. For the second time he's had everything fall perfectly into place and can't do anything with it. Won the turnover battle and got a big play on special teams, that's all you can ask for. Hell, this game they even spotted us a TD as well.

[CRA]

Against Tampa 25% of his throws were over 10 yards.

In this game he only was pressured 8 times, where he completed 1 pass for 12 yards. So in a game where he was pressured less he throws more passes deeper, has a higher ypa and completes a higher percentage.

I'm not even invested in Clausen and yet I feel like I am defending him because some people are so blind to accepting that the guy might actually be improving. He had a long way to come from, but he is making slow progress...

Tampa has one of the worst DL in the NFL. They can't get pressure. The OL protected, opened big holes for the RB, very good ground game.......

the result?? Clausen did nothing. Just like every other game. That isn't him being a rookie or Fox or the WRs.....Jimmy just doesn't do anything.

[Urrymonster]

Luck. With is 50% completion percentage I don't think he has the ability to throw it to a perfect spot downfield when he usually can't hit a wide open guy 10 yards away.

Didn't you just say he was really accurate at the short passes

I want to see what else this site offers. I want to see what their definition of pressure is. I don't think you've doctored them at all. I think the way you've interpreted them is the issue. Like I've said a million times, stats really don't mean anything. They don't consider things like field position, sudden changes (picks, fumbles, etc), game situations so they are useless. Unless wherever you got them from does, then it would be interesting to see.

It's pure statistical site designed to give stats for people to analyse. Pressure is defined by forcing the QB to move by their presence in the pocket, 'stepping up' is not counted. So ends that crash round the corner allowing the QB to step into space achieve nothing. If it's unclear, it's not counted.

If you think Clausen played a good game then we will never see eye to eye no matter what stats you present me. If we weren't playing a Jake led team, no way that game is close. For the second time he's had everything fall perfectly into place and can't do anything with it. Won the turnover battle and got a big play on special teams, that's all you can ask for. Hell, this game they even spotted us a TD as well.

Where have I ever said he played a GOOD game? I said it was better than people give him credit and actually progress from what he has done in the past. When combining it with the Tampa game (the most recent1/4 of his season) he's actually showing signs of being able to play at this level. Is there room for improvement? Of course. Am I comfortable i him being our future at QB? Heck no, but I am starting to see some things that is warming me to him.

Tampa has one of the worst DL in the NFL. They can't get pressure. The OL protected, opened big holes for the RB, very good ground game.......

the result?? Clausen did nothing. Just like every other game. That isn't him being a rookie or Fox or the WRs.....Jimmy just doesn't do anything.

A fair point, Tampa do indeed suck at pressuring the QB (basically the same as us if we didn't have Johnson). However he has shown to be significantly better when not facing pressure.

He achieved this:

Tampa - 15/24 (62.5%), 179 yards (7.5 ypa / 11.9 ypc), 85.2 QB rating

Cleveland - 14/17 (82.4%), 167 yards (9.8 ypa / 11.9 ypc), 107.6 QB rating

He definitely is passing more short passes than we are used to in Carolina that is for sure. Personally I am not as critical as you for favouring the safer pass, however I am aware a gun shy QB is a pointless QB.

I intend to monitor the rest of the season in this fashion and we can see if he starts to change in any way.