The Peyton Hillis thread

[SteveSmithOwns]

alright, very good. we seem to be making some progress here.

just one question. I can't seem to remember when a coach has asked a white HB to be QB. I remember alot of people thinking The Golden Calf of Bristol should be a TE or FB, but never the other way around

[King Taharqa]

Larry Csonka, Jim Taylor, and Red Grange are 3 names of white RBs who have been inducted into Canton. Just a fun fact for those folks who foolishly believe white RBs have never been celebrated or been a big part of he NFL. People need to study the history of the white RB and what he's gone thru and stop thinking guys aint made their mark on this game and aint accomplished nothing. Some of the best RBs in history were white guys.

[King Taharqa]

just one question. I can't seem to remember when a coach has asked a white HB to be QB. I remember alot of people thinking The Golden Calf of Bristol should be a TE or FB, but never the other way around

I think it happens alot. Alot of QBs Ive seen would've probably made out better as RBs or FBs. I think coaches stereotype white kids as QBs instead of positions like RB and WR. They try to discourage guys from playing those positions because of racism and stereotypes. Its sad, cuz I think they sell alot of kids short. Guys could be 1500 yard runners and catch 20 TDs, but their coaches talk em out of it.

[SteveSmithOwns]

well, what I meant was the names of white HB's that were asked to switch to QB.

But I agree. there are things that white HB's can offer. Peyton Hillis is showing is exactly what they can do. the same goes for black QB's. they can bring things to the position that white QB's normally don't

Some of this is based on the results of players and their skin color. In general, black HB's have been more successful than white HB's. I don't think anyone is going to argue that point. While on the other hand, if you look at QB's, alot of the most successful have been white. because of this trend, people don't want to change their opinion of who can be good

[SteveSmithOwns]

and King, I think the main reason that people don't give black QB's a chance as you say is because of the system they play in at college. Alot of them are in spread systems that are not NFL regular. Alot of them that can make first downs in college based on their running abilities will not be able to do that in the NFL due to the speed. Michael Vick is the exception to the rule, not the norm though. It's because of this that would require them to be a project once they got to the NFL.

[King Taharqa]

Some of this is based on the results of players and their skin color. In general, black HB's have been more successful than white HB's. I don't think anyone is going to argue that point. While on the other hand, if you look at QB's, alot of the most successful have been white. because of this trend, people don't want to change their opinion of who can be good

So you're pretty much echoing the same sentiment as me. So why make a sarcastic thread poking fun at what I talk about? :confused:

[SteveSmithOwns]

I think most of the people on here would give a black QB a chance. There are TONS of Michael Vick threads with alot of our fans pleading for the FO to go and sign him. my problem stems from the fact that it seems that you are saying we should have a black QB no matter what and that we hate black QB's. I don't hate black QB's. I hated Vick, but that was because he played for my least favorite team, the Falcons. I actually am rooting for him now because he seems to have turned himself around. I now hate Matt Ryan. and I wouldn't mind a black QB at all. Cam Newton I think would be a guy that we could bring in and be a successful QB. the guy has the size, athleticism and arm to be the next better Josh Freeman. The fact that you are saying that we all hate the black QB is what annoys me

[King Taharqa]

and King, I think the main reason that people don't give black QB's a chance as you say is because of the system they play in at college. Alot of them are in spread systems that are not NFL regular. Alot of them that can make first downs in college based on their running abilities will not be able to do that in the NFL due to the speed. Michael Vick is the exception to the rule, not the norm though. It's because of this that would require them to be a project once they got to the NFL.

People ignore black QBs passing abilities. Every year the Panthers manage to find a way to lose to a black QB who played and threw passes in college. But for some reason they can never find one good enough to be a player for them. I think people are too quick to come up with excuses. Whatever our belief system is or idea of what a QB is here in Carolina hasnt worked for us and doesnt look like its going to work anytime soon. Fans like myself offer an alternative to a team like ours that is one of the worst in the league with nothing to lose and everything to gain trying something different.

[SteveSmithOwns]

yeah, I agree they don't give them a chance. But that's the NFL as a whole. It isn't just black QB's that they are doing this too. It also also white QB's as well. look at Colt McCoy as an example. the guy led his team to a national championship, made all the throws, was a team leader, supposedly a good guy, everything he could. and he was very talented. he was drafted in the 3rd round. and I think the biggest argument that people have against black QB's is their accuracy. I'm not gonna lie, I rely mostly on scouts to let me know how accurate a QB is. Of course, you can watch them and get some judge based on that, but I think of scouts as the final word on the matter. and I highly doubt that any scout would intentionally look at a black QB, see he has everything, and decide to pass on him because he was black. Atleast he wouldn't if he liked his job.

[King Taharqa]

The fact that you are saying that we all hate the black QB is what annoys me

who is "we"? Who are you speaking for? Im interested to see who you are identifying with.

[SteveSmithOwns]

'we' refers to Panthers fans in general. one of your sigs not to long ago was something like "Panther's fans couldn't imagine having a black QB as the face of their franchise. That would be the end of the world." I think in reality, most wouldn't mind. There are a few that would, but those are the uneducated and bandwagoners, most that I wouldn't even want as fans of this team. The fact that you seem to steriotype every Panthers fan in that category is what annoyed me

[King Taharqa]

Racism Alive And Swell In the NFL

The National Football League does an excellent job of publicly attacking some issues and problems. Unfortunately, the league disguises one of its most embarrassing issues within a veil of euphemistic lingo and "throwback" logic. This issue doesn't exist within the walls of NFL boardrooms, but is embedded into the league's fabric: racial prejudice and stereotyping.

Today, Peyton Hillis, the Cleveland Browns' most impressive running back since Kevin Mack, is the latest "victim" of the NFL's color cycle. Hillis isn't the run of the mill 6-foot-2, 250-pound chocolate bruiser. He's an Arkansas born-and-raised white guy. Don't you remember the white running back who starred at the University of Arkansas before Darren McFadden and Felix Jones (both African-Americans) pushed him off the depth chart? What about the guy who played for the Broncos and averaged 5 yards per carry before being traded to the Browns? None of this rings a bell?

I'm sure, too, that you are familiar with the names Knowshon Moreno and Correll Buckhalter. These two bronzed tailbacks are the guys Broncos coach Josh McDaniels felt were better than Hillis. Buckhalter missed the 2002, 2004 and 2005 seasons with knee injuries. Apparently a white running back who struggled because he was pigeon-holed as a fullback isn't as valued as a black running back with multiple knee injuries. This is eerily similar to the early years in the NFL when black players struggled with typecasting but kept their mouths shut for fear of being labeled a "troublemaker."

Many NFL coaches pounded the notion into Hillis' head that he could only be a fullback in the NFL and he should brush up on his special teams play. Evidently, that's as far as his skin tone would take him.

The only way a black running back enters the NFL with that kind of resume without being drafted in the first round is if his 40-yard dash time is slow, like Shonn Greene.

It is also widely known that former Stanford star Toby Gerhart was advised to do the same. Gerhart was the 2009 Heisman Trophy runner-up, Doak Walker Award winner, consensus All-America -- and second-round draft pick. The only way a black running back enters the NFL with that kind of resume without being drafted in the first round is if his 40-yard dash time is slow, like Shonn Greene.

The Cleveland Browns drafted Montario Hardesty in the second round, eight picks after Gerhart was selected. Hardesty endured multiple knee surgeries in college -- to the point he had to take a medical redshirt year to recover from injuries.

The Browns traded away three draft picks in order to move into the second round to draft an injury-prone running back. This is the running back the Browns envisioned establishing their run game, not Peyton Hillis.

After the 1932 season, Washington Redskins owner George Preston Marshall -- affectionately known, according to African-American studies professor Dr. Charles Ross, as the "... leading racist in the NFL" -- convinced other club owners to implement a non-formal ban of black players. This "ban" lasted 13 seasons.

Understanding there was a 13-year period when no black players were allowed to participate in the NFL is critical in understanding why the prejudices and stereotypes exist today. There was a collective and concerted effort to maintain white rosters throughout the league that impacts today's game and thinking.

Post-1933 there were zero black players for 13 years, when the league was still in its infancy and going through its most formative stages. While the foundation of the game was being laid it was being done under the formidable flag of bigotry. White privilege constructed the concept of a quarterback, center, safety and middle linebacker. White thought designed who was deemed capable to lead and coach. White power built the game brick by brick and the mortar of racial intolerance holds the house together even today.

Integration didn't turn the NFL into a utopian society; it only guided the racial rhetoric into the consciousness of the landscape. Kenny Washington (HB-DB) and Woody Strode (WR) were the first black players to be integrated in the NFL -- and as more arrived typecasting took full effect.

The black players were placed at the "skill" positions, which is another way of saying they were asked to just run fast. Their white counterparts held on to the positions that were considered the "cerebral" or "central" positions. "Centrality" is an advanced theory many sociologists point to in order to explain why positions like quarterback, center, middle linebacker and safety were off limits to the black players.

These positions were "central" because they required critical thinking skills and communication to teammates. Black athletes during that period were deemed not smart enough to communicate effectively and incapable of leading. I don't want to fail to mention there was a natural quota system in play because all of the black players were competing for the same few jobs. So the league was "integrated" but with positional stipulations and numeric accountability. Black players readily accepted their "roles" because prior to 1946 blacks weren't playing at all.

The game grew and athletes of varied ethnic backgrounds began to excel at all positions. One would assume that this would be great for the game because performance would now become the ultimate deciding factor in who was considered capable or incapable. That assumption would only be partly accurate. It's partly inaccurate because of the foundation that was laid in the early years.

The coaches and executives were the gatekeepers of the antiquated ideologies on who was physically and mentally equipped for particular jobs. As the black players settled into and accepted their "roles" the white players did the exact same because players understood they could control only one thing and that was their performance. Coaches and executives understood they could control everything. Although the control quotient wasn't intended to affect the white athletes, bigotry's omnipotent presence through time inadvertently boiled over onto the white players as well.

LeCharles Bentley

As a former center in the NFL, I experienced what it was like to play a position that the NFL culture didn't envision me worthy of playing. In 2005 I was the only black starting center in the NFL. I was far from a pioneer. I followed in the footsteps of two of the league's greatest centers in Dermontti Dawson and Dwight Stephenson. My peers during that time were Matt Birk, Olin Kreutz and Jeff Saturday. I was much younger than those guys, but I was in the elite conversation based on my performance.

What was interesting was the type of conversation that surrounded my play compared to theirs. I vividly remember hearing a commentator speak of Saturday's ability to study defenses, lead the line and display his overall "cerebral" approach to the game. All of this is absolutely true, but Saturday and I played against the same defenses. I studied the same film he did and made the same line calls. I was categorized as "big and physical."

Growing up I wanted to be like Stephenson and Dawson, but once I reached the pinnacle of my success I realized in order for me to be respected as a complete player I had to sprinkle in a little Mike Webster and Mark Stepnoski. During my free-agent trip to Cleveland the offensive line coach took me into his office and broke out some film.

I assumed we were going to watch my highlight reel considering I was coming off of my second Pro-Bowl berth. Instead of the highlight reel, we watched clips of their offense and I was asked to identify certain defensive looks just "to be sure I understood the concepts."

To this day I wonder if the conversation would have been the same if Matt Birk or Jeff Saturday walked into that meeting.

There are seismic shifts taking place in the NFL and they are all for the greater good of the game. It's often said that change is good but change that is preceded by open and honest dialogue is better. Labor issues will be resolved, concussions will be handled more appropriately and helmet to helmet hits minimized, but will those changes leave the NFL where it genuinely wants to be?

The culture of the NFL was forged when the league's foundation was laid. This foundation is haunted by the ghost of George Preston Marshall and universally discriminates against black and white athletes. It's an irony that can no longer be ignored.

LeCharles Bentley is a former NFL player for the New Orleans Saints and current NFL analyst on FanHouse TV.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/12/02/reverse-racism-alive-and-swell-in-nfl/?icid=nfl

Props to LeCharles Bentley for speaking the real and props to the OP of this thread. What started out as a sarcastic poke at me, is now a credible thread.

[frash.exe]

Obviously we can now see that teams have not been giving white Halfback's a chance. Denver traded him for freakin Brady Quinn. If these teams would just see what they had with white HB's, but instead, they prefer to not 'upset the masses' by having a white guy as HB.

Denver doesn't deserve such a talented white HB as Peyton Hillis

lol another reason they fired mcdaniels

[mav1234]

People ignore black QBs passing abilities. Every year the Panthers manage to find a way to lose to a black QB who played and threw passes in college. But for some reason they can never find one good enough to be a player for them. I think people are too quick to come up with excuses. Whatever our belief system is or idea of what a QB is here in Carolina hasnt worked for us and doesnt look like its going to work anytime soon. Fans like myself offer an alternative to a team like ours that is one of the worst in the league with nothing to lose and everything to gain trying something different.

lines like this are why people get annoyed with you. I'm not ignoring what a black QB throws in college. I'm looking at their system and wondering if it inflates their stats... the same exact way I looked at The Golden Calf of Bristol (and how I look at Pike).

the Panthers find plenty of ways to lose to plenty of quarterbacks, black and white. and they have passed on a lot of great players, and a lot of positions, both black and white. I get there is racism in the NFL - really I do. I have no doubt it even plays a role in how quarterbacks are perceived. However, you make statements designed to seperate black quarterbacks from white quarterbacks which in turn also serves to divide the fanbase and this forum.

Instead of saying, "hey, you know, Vick's a great quarterback" it often becomes "Vick's a great black quarterback." This is an oversimplification of your posts, obviously, but I have tried to look at your posts with an open mind and see your point of view. Often, there is some truth in what you say, but you bury it beneath statements designed to inflame and anger... and saddly, to divide. You divide the fanbase, you divide the players. Instead of saying, "the panthers should try to go for a quarterback that is different in xyz and such and such is just that player," it becomes "the panthers need a black quarterback because it's different from what we've been doing." When they don't go after that player, it becomes "they're racist."

anyway, whatever. A lot of times I see what you're getting at, and I think there's some truth in what you say. I just feel like you wrap it in a coating designed to irritate and piss off people purely for your own enjoyment.