I think everyone's overrating the whole vets thing just a tad bit

[panthers55]

I think the reason we are soooo bad is that the coaching staff did not adjust well to the injuries, and did little to minimize the weakness and inexperience of this team. Simple things like shortening up the passing game would have done wonders. Not that we would have been a SB contender regardless, but there is no reason that this team should be this bad.

And while I believe that, in general, we have good veteran leadership, the problem is that in specific areas we are severely lacking. For instance, in our defensive backfield and QB. We don't really have a "QB" back there directing the DB's like we did with Harris. Now physically I think Harris was a liability, but with him gone, it seems we have no leadership back there at all.

As for QB, it has been particularly devestating not having a veteran on staff. Nobody can tell me that a vet that has been through the wars wouldn't have been able to help settle down both Moore and Clausen a bit, while also pointing out the little things a young QB might miss. That doesn't mean either would have suddenly become Peyton Manning, but both are far better than they have shown this year.

Exactly. Obviously some people here get it. :hurray:

[mav1234]

That was my point. Not only did we lose a number of starters but we didn't have sufficient depth to handle the inevitable injuries. That is all part of the problem I pointed out 6 months ago. Look at the linebackers, we went from loaded to thin becuase of injury and no depth. look at quarterback, offensive line and the list continues. If we hadn't cut the veterans, we wouldn't be scrounging the waiver wire and practice squads looking for bodies.

pretty sure any team, if they had 3 injuries at a position, would have their depth shattered. that is what happened to us at LB and at RB. No amount of saving veterans would have helped that. Losing Otah sucked, but they had a backup plan. It just turned out not as well as they had hoped;

so which cuts are you talking about exactly that decimated our depth, then?

[Jangler]

Pretty sure it was PETA stopping the goat sacrifices on the night of the new moon in August that did us in this year.

[mav1234]

Harris was there last year, and how good was he at "quarterbacking" that secondary? Lacking veterans is NOT the same as "this team was gutted of veterans and with them we would be winnres!" If your complaint is, "we didn't bring in anyone to fix things," fine. But saying "We cut people waah" is silly.

also, fwiw, Harris was traded for williams, and LB depth is an area we needed more than safety. Williams, while not a veteran, had tremendous upside and played well in relief in Chicago so he could work out well here.

I think the reason we are soooo bad is that the coaching staff did not adjust well to the injuries, and did little to minimize the weakness and inexperience of this team. Simple things like shortening up the passing game would have done wonders. Not that we would have been a SB contender regardless, but there is no reason that this team should be this bad.

This is the key. Our staff sucks at adjusting to it's personnel it seems, at least on offense. So sure, if we had brought in more Fox guys, then maybe the season woulda been a bit better.

[panthers55]

pretty sure any team, if they had 3 injuries at a position, would have their depth shattered. that is what happened to us at LB and at RB. No amount of saving veterans would have helped that. Losing Otah sucked, but they had a backup plan. It just turned out not as well as they had hoped;

so which cuts are you talking about exactly that decimated our depth, then?

If we had Diggs who was given an extension and then cut 4 months later we would still be fine at linebacker right now. If we had kept Vincent we would be fine at O line or at least better. If we had Moose and Hoover I promise you our running game would be much improved. And if we had Harris our secondary wouldn't be getting blown up by New Orleans and any team with a passing attack. All guys who are better than than the guys who replaced them.

I would agree that running back would still be a problem which is ironically a position no one worried about. Still replacing 1 area of weakness would be alot easier than trying to plug as many holes as we have. The issue isn't this player or that but all the players we had to replace.

[panthers55]

Harris was there last year, and how good was he at "quarterbacking" that secondary? Lacking veterans is NOT the same as "this team was gutted of veterans and with them we would be winnres!" If your complaint is, "we didn't bring in anyone to fix things," fine. But saying "We cut people waah" is silly.

also, fwiw, Harris was traded for williams, and LB depth is an area we needed more than safety. Williams, while not a veteran, had tremendous upside and played well in relief in Chicago so he could work out well here.

This is the key. Our staff sucks at adjusting to it's personnel it seems, at least on offense. So sure, if we had brought in more Fox guys, then maybe the season woulda been a bit better.

Go back to last year and see how we did in the first part of the season without harris then how we did when he came back and you will see that his presence made an immediate difference.

As for veterans on the team versus veterans in general I wouldn't really care. I was all for Landri coming here because although his expereince was limited , it beat what we had. Williams likewise although he didn't last long. Problem was that from a game experience point of view, we had few experienced guys and it has hurt more on offense than defense.

[mav1234]

If we had Diggs who was given an extension and then cut 4 months later we would still be fine at linebacker right now.

Take a look at who replaced Diggs as a starter. His production was not that great last year anyway, and while he was a nice backup, I honestly don't think losing him hurt us much. How do you predict losing two of your starters and (for a time, though I think he is healthy now) one of your backups at a position??

If we had kept Vincent we would be fine at O line or at least better.

Vincent was so great he got cut by his next team and nobody has picked him up as far as I know, including us. Would he be an upgrade over what we have now? Possibly, but I don't think he was an upgrade over what we went into this season projected with. If Otah doesn't get injured, then what? Things look totally different.

If we had Moose and Hoover I promise you our running game would be much improved.

I don't really agree with this. I really do NOT think Fiametta is a problem here, and while Moose could block, Lafell is actually a fine blocker. Going youth at Fullback made GOOD sense, and the only problem with WR was not bringing in a good veteran... Moose had lost... nearly all his steps.

And if we had Harris our secondary wouldn't be getting blown up by New Orleans and any team with a passing attack.

... you're crazy. He didn't stop Brees last year and he wouldn't have this year.

[mav1234]

This year, Harris and Martin are putting up similar numbers. His leadership can't be estimated, but I never saw Harris as "the leader" of the defense; I always saw that as Beason.

[panthers55]

Take a look at who replaced Diggs as a starter. His production was not that great last year anyway, and while he was a nice backup, I honestly don't think losing him hurt us much. How do you predict losing two of your starters and (for a time, though I think he is healthy now) one of your backups at a position??

Vincent was so great he got cut by his next team and nobody has picked him up as far as I know, including us. Would he be an upgrade over what we have now? Possibly, but I don't think he was an upgrade over what we went into this season projected with. If Otah doesn't get injured, then what? Things look totally different.

I don't really agree with this. I really do NOT think Fiametta is a problem here, and while Moose could block, Lafell is actually a fine blocker. Going youth at Fullback made GOOD sense, and the only problem with WR was not bringing in a good veteran... Moose had lost... nearly all his steps.

... you're crazy. He didn't stop Brees last year and he wouldn't have this year.

I know you don't agree, you aren't alone. I think that losing guys like Moose and Hoover have hurt our physical presence that was a hallmark of the team, but don't care to argue over and over. 1-7 should tell you all you need to know.

Vincent was cut due to injury. There is no guarantee he would be cut here.

And you miss the point as usual if you don't realize that Diggs was very good and whether a starter or backup, was well worth the price to keep him especially with davis coming off ACL reconstruction.

You guys are just slow it seems. Yoi can make a case for anybody but the point isn't one guy but 8 guys and their replacements.

What is ridiculous is that we are 1-7 and you still don't think the veterans cuts were a problem.

[panthers55]

This year, Harris and Martin are putting up similar numbers. His leadership can't be estimated, but I never saw Harris as "the leader" of the defense; I always saw that as Beason.

Because you obviously don't know that we have separate signal calling in the secondary from what Beason does at the linebacker position. Beason calls the base defense and make line adjustments while the SS makes secondary reads and adjust the positioning of the secondary/

[mav1234]

I agree that losing Hoover & Moose did reduce the toughness of the team, I just don't believe they would have mattered at all. I think a good receiver could have made a bit of a difference, but honestly, it wouldn't have mattered much with the way other things went down. I think they really did screw up by not singing depth for the o-line & d-lines.

Losing Diggs to me was... irrelevant at that time... We had a better starter ready and we still had depth behind him, even IF Davis didn't recover as planned.

Still, I get where you're coming from, I just disagree.

[mav1234]

Because you obviously don't know that we have separate signal calling in the secondary from what Beason does at the linebacker position. Beason calls the base defense and make line adjustments while the SS makes secondary reads and adjust the positioning of the secondary/

I misunderstood your point; I thought you (or the other poster) was saying we were missing leadership in the lockerroom and on the field, not that signal calling was lacking this year. If that is the argument, I honestly have no idea if it's the case, except that good quarterbacks still destroyed us even with Harris back there, so I don't know... and the defense had the benefit of an offense that at least moved the ball before turning it over. =(

[panthers55]

I agree that losing Hoover & Moose did reduce the toughness of the team, I just don't believe they would have mattered at all. I think a good receiver could have made a bit of a difference, but honestly, it wouldn't have mattered much with the way other things went down. I think they really did screw up by not singing depth for the o-line & d-lines.

Losing Diggs to me was... irrelevant at that time... We had a better starter ready and we still had depth behind him, even IF Davis didn't recover as planned.

Still, I get where you're coming from, I just disagree.

Anyone who knows our history knows that injuries do bite us every year and guys who are supposed to come back often don't. And Depth is always an issue.

[CatMan72]

Yup, it all starts and ends with the QB and right now we don't have one.