I think everyone's overrating the whole vets thing just a tad bit

[frash.exe]

Jon Beason

Charles Johnson

Steve Smith

Jeff King

DeAngelo Williams

Jordan Gross

Ryan Kalil

Matt Moore

Travelle Wharton

Chris Gamble

Richard Marshall

Tyler Brayton

Dante Rosario

James Anderson

Derek Landri

these are most of the significant players that are in their 4th season or better. 14 of them are starting or have started for us this season. I didn't include Davis because he didn't even get to see the field, and really when you look at it rookies have only started at 3 different positions during the season (WR1, WR2, QB)

stop acting like this "lack of vets" myth is the only reason we suck this year. Most of the people we dropped/let walk were ancient to begin with and the only reason they stick out so much in people's heads is because Delhomme, Moose, Hoover, Peppers once helped this team become contenders years ago. It's up to Fox and his disciples of mediocrity just as much if not more than Hurney to keep up with the turnover of vets aging until they look like the iron sheik put pads on and tried to run a route, by developing more players into valuable vets.

For some reason, even despite the fact that everybody knows we have no future with him some people are still so quick to give Fox break after break after break

[mav1234]

problem was not the people that we let walk, but the people we didn't bring in., imo.

no break meant here for Fox, just saying that as far as personnel issues go, it's less who was let go, and more what was not brought in.

[dimbee]

All goes in the shitter if you don't have a competent or healthy QB and your RBs keep going down. No team can succeed under those circumstances, veteran/young be damned.

[Dpantherman]

i just want some offense damnit!

[panthers55]

1-7 says it all. No veteran receivers outside of Smith, no veteran quarterbacks, one veteran on the defensive line, no veterans on the right side of the O line. All the areas we suck and the major reason we are so terrible. We gutted the veterans and we are the laughing stock of the league. Coincidence?? Hardly.

We all talk about how game experience is important so lets not call Moore a seasoned veteran when he started a total of 8 games in his career or even guys like Charles Johnson who started a handful of games in his career. By the end of this year Clausen will have started more games than Moore if he starts the rest of the year. Does that make him a veteran or still a rookie??

It isn't how many rookies or veterans you have but where are the folks in key positions. Obviously for the offense the guys in key positions are not veterans especially at receiver and quarterback which are the most important elements of the offense. And do they play like veterans or rookies.

Sure that isn't the only reason we suck but I saw the writing on the wall 6 months ago when we cut the veterans and said so. Remember that as I predicted it wasn't just the veterans we cut but all the depth we lost when our backups became starters and we couldn't replace that experience either as injuries have hit like they always do.

[Jangler]

i just want some offense damnit!

I think the offense has been offensive enough.

[Brooklyn Bully]

Also, stop using "we have rookies out there!" as an excuse for anything. Other than LaFell and Gettis...yeah, not so much.

[frash.exe]

didn't take p55 long to jump in this thread and poo himself embarrassingly

[mav1234]

1-7 says it all. No veteran receivers outside of Smith, no veteran quarterbacks, one veteran on the defensive line, no veterans on the right side of the O line. All the areas we suck and the major reason we are so terrible. We gutted the veterans and we are the laughing stock of the league. Coincidence?? Hardly.

The people we cut would not have helped those areas really. Perhaps we should have brought in others to build depth or compete for starting positions, but those that were "gutted" really would not have helped in my opinion. The real critical misstep here was in overestimating the talent we had and not in investing in other veterans.

[panthers55]

didn't take p55 long to jump in this thread and poo himself embarrassingly

Didn't take you long to resort to personal attacks when someone points out your flawed logic and ridiculous point of view..

[Woodie]

I think the reason we are soooo bad is that the coaching staff did not adjust well to the injuries, and did little to minimize the weakness and inexperience of this team. Simple things like shortening up the passing game would have done wonders. Not that we would have been a SB contender regardless, but there is no reason that this team should be this bad.

And while I believe that, in general, we have good veteran leadership, the problem is that in specific areas we are severely lacking. For instance, in our defensive backfield and QB. We don't really have a "QB" back there directing the DB's like we did with Harris. Now physically I think Harris was a liability, but with him gone, it seems we have no leadership back there at all.

As for QB, it has been particularly devestating not having a veteran on staff. Nobody can tell me that a vet that has been through the wars wouldn't have been able to help settle down both Moore and Clausen a bit, while also pointing out the little things a young QB might miss. That doesn't mean either would have suddenly become Peyton Manning, but both are far better than they have shown this year.

[frash.exe]

p55 tell us about how much of a seasoned battle-tested vet Jake Delhomme was when we picked him up in 03

[panthers55]

The people we cut would not have helped those areas really. Perhaps we should have brought in others to build depth or compete for starting positions, but those that were "gutted" really would not have helped in my opinion. The real critical misstep here was in overestimating the talent we had and not in investing in other veterans.

That was my point. Not only did we lose a number of starters but we didn't have sufficient depth to handle the inevitable injuries. That is all part of the problem I pointed out 6 months ago. Look at the linebackers, we went from loaded to thin becuase of injury and no depth. look at quarterback, offensive line and the list continues. If we hadn't cut the veterans, we wouldn't be scrounging the waiver wire and practice squads looking for bodies.

[panthers55]

p55 tell us about how much of a seasoned battle-tested vet Jake Delhomme was when we picked him up in 03

We got lucky. Sometimes it happens. No one knew that he would do what he did in 03. The difference is that you can reasonably expect it to happen with 1 or 2 guys in a season. This year we had to expect that all 8 backups turned starters would play at a high level and then for their backups to play at a high level as well. It was asking two many guys to all play at a high level at the same time. Cmon I explained this before.