Fiz/Cyberjag

[Skew]

I had thought he was trying to insult me with the "Who are you" thing but maybe it was just an honest question, since this is the first season I've been such an avid poster.

No insult. I really don't remember seeing you post.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. But I will say that when bringing in FAs, 9 times out of 10, it's a temporary fix and not a long term solution. Which has been the case with Hurney and FA WRs. He's always look for a long-term solution to WRs in the draft. And he's failed miserably.

That's my opinion. Hurney should go, now's the time to do it since we're dumping Fox as well.

You don't think Hurney should be fired. You think he's done a good job with the QB & WR positions (I still don't see it). But that's your opinion.

I ready to go to other threads, so I'll leave it there.

I tried to leave it with this.

Oh, well. Typical Fiz.

I'm done.

[Kevin Greene]

No, he edited a post before that.

But thanks for your concern.

OK, well I'd have to assume this time you really mean it and it's permanent.

One less quality poster on the Huddle.

[mav1234]

Ahh, apologies for getting defensive then. Just misunderstood your question.

I've read the board for a while but it wasn't until last season I started posting, and not until this season that I did it with any regularity.

[Kurb]

[Cyberjag]

Wow, lots of catching up to do.

I don't think I can keep up with the insults going back and forth, but as far as the WR discussion maybe I can chime in a little.

Under Fox, Carolina has consistently placed an emphasis on the running game. I don't think that would even be up for debate.

Hurney has had the following top two receivers in his tenure:

2002, Moose and Smitty - inherited

2003, Smitty and Moose - inherited

2004, Moose and Colbert - Smitty got hurt, and Colbert was drafted in the 2nd and killed it

2005, Smitty and Colbert - Who would have predicted Colbert's regression? After his rookie year, you can't really call this a bad decision.

2006, Smitty and Keyshawn - Colbert sucked so Hurney went and got someone who didn't. In the draft, we were starving for a running back and help on defense.

2007, Smitty and Colbert - This is the real year where a lack of a second receiver was a legit problem. I really think they thought Jarrett or Hacket would be the answer, but instead they whiffed hard.

Smitty and Moose - Got Moose back, life is good

Smitty and Moose - Now Moose is done. Fans are still mad about 2007 and the lack of a receiver is now a meme. But to date, Hurney has only drafted two on the first day.

Smitty and Gettis - With three receivers taken in the draft, it's hard to say he's not trying to address the position.

So really, for most of his tenure we've had decent receivers. In 2005 and 2007 we didn't, and in 2009 we should have gotten a veteran to replace Moose. But overall it's been a position that's had second class status here. And that has a lot to do with the emphasis that the coaching staff has placed on the run.

[Kurb]

Anyone who doesn't realize the fact that John Fox is terrified of the forward pass and that has affected our efforts to get WR's should just stop.

[Cyberjag]

It's really all about the priorities. QB hasn't been one for most of Hurney's tenure, and when WR has been one who's been available? You can point to this off-season, but that's not fair because he wasn't allowed to sign anyone.

In 2006 the best option would have been Antonio Bryant, but he wanted to be a number one and went to SF.

In 2007 we maybe could have gotten Donte Stallworth. No one else was worth a damn that year.

In 2008 New England got Randy Moss, who inexplicably wanted to play with Brady instead of Delhomme. Berrian was a free agent, but we liked Moose.

So really, it's not like there were a lot of options in free agency. Of course, in Huddle-land you can always make a trade for Brady and Fitzgerald, all you need to do is pick up the phone. Unfortunately for Hurney, real life doesn't work that way.

[House]

It's really all about the priorities. QB hasn't been one for most of Hurney's tenure, and when WR has been one who's been available? You can point to this off-season, but that's not fair because he wasn't allowed to sign anyone.

In 2006 the best option would have been Antonio Bryant, but he wanted to be a number one and went to SF.

In 2007 we maybe could have gotten Donte Stallworth. No one else was worth a damn that year.

In 2008 New England got Randy Moss, who inexplicably wanted to play with Brady instead of Delhomme. Berrian was a free agent, but we liked Moose.

So really, it's not like there were a lot of options in free agency. Of course, in Huddle-land you can always make a trade for Brady and Fitzgerald, all you need to do is pick up the phone. Unfortunately for Hurney, real life doesn't work that way.

Word.

[Mr. Scot]

If that's the case, then Fox and Hurney together can't evaluate QB or WR talent. Which is just more of a reason to say that if Fox goes, Hurney needs to as well.

I have no complaints when it comes to their ability to evaluate talent at all other positions. I think they both have done an excellent job in that sense. But as for QB & WR, they both suck, and the talent level we have had at those positions has been hurting us ever since the both of them arrived here in Carolina. The two of them have done nothing to improve these positions. Abet, Delomme was a slight improvement, but that being the pinnacle is truly sad.

A pro scout would likely tell you quarterback is the single hardest position to evaluate, which makes sense given that it's the most complex. Sometimes guys that look like all-pros in college are huge busts in the pros. Sometimes guys that look average in college become pro all-stars.

Receiver's not such an easy transition either. You get guys that look like gods of the gridiron in college when they only have to know six routes and may or may not have any blocking or reading responsibilities. Maybe they're just bigger, stronger and faster than everyone else so they look dominant. But then they get to the NFL where the talent gap isn't so huge and they can't get used to actually having to work at their craft rather than just automatically being better.

(yeah, I have a certain someone in mind on that one)

On the QB front, yeah they've likely passed on some guys they shouldn't have, but Fox's philosophy - like Cowher's for much of his time in Pittsburgh - didn't really require that franchise quarterback. He only needed one that was "good enough" and for most years, that was Delhomme. But then one day it wasn't

On the receivers, we looked a while back at how much trouble the Eagles had getting good receivers until they finally hit with some of the recent picks. Doubt anyone would say that the Eagles are bad at drafting, but they've whiffed their fair share at that position (and others). Hitting a homer with one guy - like a DeSean Jackson - can make a lot of that go away.

Me? I'm putting a lot of hope into next year. We haven't drafted as high as we're likely to be drafting since the beginning of the Fox era. And we've drafted better overall since Don Gregory took over the college scouting department. For that matter, who knows what thee guys we already have might look like under better conditions (and leadership).

There are reasons to be optimistic, and that'll be my outlook till they give me a reason to be otherwise.

[Cyberjag]

There are reasons to be optimistic, and that'll be my outlook till they give me a reason to be otherwise.

That's precisely why you don't fire Hurney now.

Everyone knows Fox is out. And this offense is a QB, RG and WR away from the one that steamrolled everyone in 2008 and late 2009. Does anyone want to make the argument that Keydrick Vincent was that talented that he made such a big difference?

Fox is a good coach, but this team is poorly coached. The offense has got little or no leadership on the field, and they don't execute well. Fox's teams have always relied on a solid, unspectacular approach, but this group can't or isn't get it done. Fox has always leaned heavily on veteran leadership, and he has none. It shows.

And that's why we're losing. Just that, don't make it out to be more. It's not because we lack talent, there's a lot out there that just needs to be harnessed. It's not because we've drafted poorly, or because we haven't been major players in free agency, or because we're tied down by big contracts to players who don't contribute (no one's mentioned how Hurney has managed to put all of his big cap hits from old veterans into this uncapped year). This team has a lot of pieces, it just needs a good coach who will embrace the youth movement and a little experience.

This off-season they blew up the team and got rid of the leadership. It would be foolish to do the same to the front office this year, especially when the change that needed making is already on the table.

[pantherclaw]

The scouting deparment is the one most responsible for evaluating talent.

I believe we're on our 3rd scouting director during the fox/hurney era.

Draft position is also important for getting a qb that is worth developing.

While fox and hurney have both been part of drafting players....wouldn't the better statement be that our scouting department has let the team down at times?

[panther4life]

Imagine if Hurney was sucessful in trading up to draft clausen at the top of the 2nd round. He gave up a first rounder to get everette at 43, so its quite plausible that he offered next years first to move up and get clausen...dumb luck for him that he couldnt find any suitors.

[panthers55]

Imagine if Hurney was sucessful in trading up to draft clausen at the top of the 2nd round. He gave up a first rounder to get everette at 43, so its quite plausible that he offered next years first to move up and get clausen...dumb luck for him that he couldnt find any suitors.

So now we are castigating Hurney for what we think he could have done but didn't have the chance. LOL at manufacturing potential problems that could have happened.

Can't we stick to thinks that actually happened.

[panther4life]

So now we are castigating Hurney for what we think he could have done but didn't have the chance. LOL at manufacturing potential problems that could have happened.

Can't we stick to thinks that actually happened.

I didnt fabricate anything, there was a strong possibility it could have happened..thank god it didnt. but there was a strong chance, cuz he admittedly tried to trade up as soon as the first round concluded.

I was just trying to add a little perspective to help you and others see that his recent decison making hasn't been very good lately