Focusing on coaches...why not Rip Scherer?

[OneBadassCat]

Sure, but the argument is that Rip tried to fix them and ended up making things worse.

I am not sure I agree. I think maybe it was the injury that made Jake worse, moreso than the QB coach. Jake use to underthrow receivers, after the injury, it seemed that more often than not, he overthrew them. Especially last year.

Yea I know what the argument is. But I think by the time 2008 rolled around he didn't have the natural talent anymore to make up for his bad mechanics. He even said himself that before the surgery he always threw in pain. He was scary accurate in 2004. It's the reason he was able to get away with the gun slinger mindset. He actually had the accuracy to do it. That injury f**ked him up. His arm might be weaker or stronger than it was but it's not the same. I don't think he ever got a grip on reading defenses either, probably because he thought he could force it. (see ARZ 09 playoff game)

[goodoleboy]

rip may not be a good coach, but he's better than mccoy.

What makes you say that? Jake's problems came to the forefront after McCoy left.

I have never seen anyone give reasons why McCoy was considered bad.

It has been repeated so much on message boards to the point people assume it to be true.

McCoy has the 6th ranked Offense in the league in Denver right now without a stud QB. I would take him over Davidson right now.

[rayzor]

From what I saw of Jake in the preseason and his time playing before the injury this year in Cleveland, it appears to me that Rip was a HUGE part of the problem. Jake will never be the player he was during his most successful years, but he hasn't looked nearly as bad this year as he did last year. Yes, he's still thrown INTs and at very inopportune times, often leading to the opponent scoring, but he's not throwing them as frequently.

jake fell apart in the playoff game against the cards and he continued that. it was his elbow and his head that got screwed up. he fell into a hole and couldn't get himself out of it and there isn't a thing that any coach could have done to change that. he at the very least needed a therapist to help him get over it. what we saw that night that he lost it against the cards was what we continued to see all the next year. he spent the whole year trying to prove that he wasn't that guy but all he did was show that he was. if mccoy had stayed, it wouldn't ahve changed a thing.

What makes you say that? Jake's problems came to the forefront after McCoy left.

I have never seen anyone give reasons why McCoy was considered bad.

It has been repeated so much on message boards to the point people assume it to be true.

McCoy has the 6th ranked Offense in the league in Denver right now without a stud QB. I would take him over Davidson right now.

you must not have been paying attention, then, because it ahs been said many times by quite a few people who have paid attention.

what makes mccoy bad? when you went to practices and mccoy was working with the QBs, all he did was have the QBs throw into a barrel thats it. i and others didn't really think much about it but then when rip came we saw something entirely different. we saw the QBs working on a whole lot of stuff we never saw with mccoy. it wasn't just accuracy, it was throwing on the move, working on their footwork, throwing under pressure, they had bags on the ground that they had to run around, they were getting wacked with tackling dummies, there were just so many things going on that we never saw with mccoy. also, while mccoy did a lot of coddling of his friend jake, rip actually held the QBs, all of them, accountable for their actions and mistakes. he concentrated on the fundamentals.

why didn't that work with jake? he was an old dog. he couldn't be retrained to be a technically sound QB. he had errors that he needed to fix but couldn't be taught how to do them when he got on the field he got his head all screwed up and started thinking about his mistakes and over thinking what he was doing in addition to trying to carry the team on his back. he just had too much going on.

re: mccoy and why he's a bad coach, it's more that he just isn't a good coach. you brought up the success that the offense is having in denver but the offense is designed and run by mcdaniels. all mccoy does is help make sure the offense is ready for mcdaniels game plan. remember what mckid did for the pats? he was the QB coach pretty much the whole time he was there and the OC for the last couple years. why is orton doing so good? it's not because he had the guy that worked with jake, it's because he has the guy that worked with tom brady for years and also helped develop matt cassel.

mccoy gets far too much credit for mckids offense around here.

[Dpantherman]

Im hearing alot about the preseason...but what did he do in the regular season?...throw interceptions and get hurt. Jake's skills have deteriorated. It happens. He's not beyond it. Is Rip a sorry excuse for a QB coach? Id say yes, but I'm not believe for one second that he caused Jake's demise. Jake is done simple as that.

[Proudiddy]

jake fell apart in the playoff game against the cards and he continued that. it was his elbow and his head that got screwed up. he fell into a hole and couldn't get himself out of it and there isn't a thing that any coach could have done to change that. he at the very least needed a therapist to help him get over it. what we saw that night that he lost it against the cards was what we continued to see all the next year. he spent the whole year trying to prove that he wasn't that guy but all he did was show that he was. if mccoy had stayed, it wouldn't ahve changed a thing.

I didn't clarify, but I didn't mean to focus so much on how Rip destroyed Jake, rather I wanted to focus on the fact that Rip sucks... lol. But seriously, as I said, Jake wasn't going to be as good as he was in his best years of production, but I should've specified that I meant after the surgery. Quite honestly, I think it is very likely that the concentrated rehab on his throwing elbow/arm resulted in his arm being stronger than it was before the surgery and that contributed to the increased amount of overthrows.

But, as you pointed out, it was clear he just didn't look very good overall in 08 which ended with the debacle against Arizona, which Rip had no part in... I believe Jake was on the downside of his career in 08 and the result of sitting out almost a year b/c of the injury/surgery just further complicated his declining abilities. His arm may have gotten stronger or it might not have after the surgery, but his pocket presence and ability to read defenses had regressed.

So, you're right, Rip had nothing to do with the beginning of the end for Jake, but he certainly piled on it IMO. When a guy has been playing the same way for his whole life through his mid-30s, you don't try to change what he's done that has made him successful... If he can't perform like he did before, then he's done.

Im hearing alot about the preseason...but what did he do in the regular season?...throw interceptions and get hurt. Jake's skills have deteriorated. It happens. He's not beyond it. Is Rip a sorry excuse for a QB coach? Id say yes, but I'm not believe for one second that he caused Jake's demise. Jake is done simple as that.

As I said, I don't think he caused Jake's demise by any stretch, I just think he advanced it a lot faster once he got here. Jake may have very well been done as a starter after the Arizona game, but with McCoy's depature and Rip coming in immediately after that, we'll never know... Favre threw some horrible games at the end of his career with the Packers, in 2006 he finished with 18 TDs and 18 INTs, with one game against the Seahawks throwing 1TD 3INTs and 2 Fumbles - A Very Jake-esque performance.

But, was he done? Not saying Jake was Favre by any means, but they played similar styles. The elbow injury may have been the nail in the coffin, but I just think Rip complicated what problems were already present.

SN: Quite honestly, I've thought about Carson Palmer a lot with his performance this year when people bring up Jake. Carson is horrible this year, and would be a lot worse if he didn't have two All-Pro caliber WRs there... He actually had the same elbow problem but IIRC decided to rest and not have surgery, but I think we're seeing the long-term effects of that injury, surgery or not.

[Jangler]

[Primetime 89]

What about Rip Torn?

[Proudiddy]

Honestly, we're all pointing fingers at the wrong guys...

2 words...

Tommy Jone.

[goodoleboy]

you must not have been paying attention, then, because it ahs been said many times by quite a few people who have paid attention.

what makes mccoy bad? when you went to practices and mccoy was working with the QBs, all he did was have the QBs throw into a barrel thats it. i and others didn't really think much about it but then when rip came we saw something entirely different. we saw the QBs working on a whole lot of stuff we never saw with mccoy. it wasn't just accuracy, it was throwing on the move, working on their footwork, throwing under pressure, they had bags on the ground that they had to run around, they were getting wacked with tackling dummies, there were just so many things going on that we never saw with mccoy. also, while mccoy did a lot of coddling of his friend jake, rip actually held the QBs, all of them, accountable for their actions and mistakes. he concentrated on the fundamentals.

why didn't that work with jake? he was an old dog. he couldn't be retrained to be a technically sound QB. he had errors that he needed to fix but couldn't be taught how to do them when he got on the field he got his head all screwed up and started thinking about his mistakes and over thinking what he was doing in addition to trying to carry the team on his back. he just had too much going on.

re: mccoy and why he's a bad coach, it's more that he just isn't a good coach. you brought up the success that the offense is having in denver but the offense is designed and run by mcdaniels. all mccoy does is help make sure the offense is ready for mcdaniels game plan. remember what mckid did for the pats? he was the QB coach pretty much the whole time he was there and the OC for the last couple years. why is orton doing so good? it's not because he had the guy that worked with jake, it's because he has the guy that worked with tom brady for years and also helped develop matt cassel.

mccoy gets far too much credit for mckids offense around here.

Oh I have been paying attention. I have heard the barrel drill complaint before but it was usually directed at Henning. All I know is Jake was an undrafted FA who wound up being a decent QB for us. McCoy played a part in that success. He is having more success now than our current crop. Fans see very little of the coaching that goes on. Its certainly not enough to evaluate them.

It sounds from this that you think Rip is a great coach. I really don't know but trying to change throwing mechanics on a veteran QB will almost always be a bad idea.

I was a professional swim coach for 30 years. I believe a QB's throwing mechanics can be compared to a swimmers stroke technique. The developmental stage is early in the career. Once they are set changing them usually isn't a good idea. By the time they get into the NFL these guys are set. They don't have time to break it down and start over. Its more about reps and reading defenses than throwing mechanics. All NFL QBs can physically make the throws or they wouldn't be here. Its knowing where to throw it that the coaching comes in.

[Snake]

qft

In 2008 Jake had like 6 bad games. His highest number of bad games in a season. One of them against f**king Detroit! This year Jake has continued to suck in Cleveland. Getting benched in favor of Seneca Wallace and noodle arm McCoy. No one else is responsible for Jake's play but Jake himself.

Yes huh Tommy Jone now on der team.

[Achilles]

I appreciate everyone's comments on my question. I made this thread because I hoped I could learn more about the situation. I have.

Basically, Jake's meltdown was a "perfect storm" of events in which not 1 or 2 things went wrong, but a series of 5 or 6 critical errors: elbow surgery, lack of reciever depth, Rip Scherer's coaching method, Fox's reliance on a worn out vet, the big contract, the AZ meltdown...

and it is a given that Jake's struggles were both physical and psychological. Probably Rip alone couldn't have been expected to change much of that. Perhaps he was hired to do just what he did...break Jake down and build him back up. It was a HUGE failure, probably somewhat due to McCoy...and the QB position has been tenuous (sure...Moore will win some games once the season is already lost...) ever since.

Also, Rip brought new, seemingly sound, training methods to the team. Whereas McCoy was lazy. But Rip's track record with NFL QBs has one shining season (Anderson..and they didn't even make the playoffs) and 5 or 6 really lousy ones.

At this point, I don't think it's really JR's style to fire coaches in mid-season, and I doubt very much we will see Rip or Jeff or Tyke jettisoned after 5 weeks.

Besides...I am of the opinion that it suits Richardson's long term agenda just fine to lose 12+ games this season...if the coaches suck...'all the better at this point' is what he's thinking...

the entire offensive staff will probably be out...I'm not against keeping Meeks on to help the transition..Scherer and Davidson are probably already getting their resumes ready...Fox probably already has a head coaching job lined up...

"It is what it is." ???

It isn't what it was...

[bigdog10]

This has been brought up before. I don't have a link, but I know there was an article this past offseason about Rip taking blame for ruining Jake Delhomme.

I'll see if I can dig it up.

[goodoleboy]

I appreciate everyone's comments on my question. I made this thread because I hoped I could learn more about the situation. I have.

Basically, Jake's meltdown was a "perfect storm" of events in which not 1 or 2 things went wrong, but a series of 5 or 6 critical errors: elbow surgery, lack of reciever depth, Rip Scherer's coaching method, Fox's reliance on a worn out vet, the big contract, the AZ meltdown...

and it is a given that Jake's struggles were both physical and psychological. Probably Rip alone couldn't have been expected to change much of that. Perhaps he was hired to do just what he did...break Jake down and build him back up. It was a HUGE failure, probably somewhat due to McCoy...and the QB position has been tenuous (sure...Moore will win some games once the season is already lost...) ever since.

Also, Rip brought new, seemingly sound, training methods to the team. Whereas McCoy was lazy. But Rip's track record with NFL QBs has one shining season (Anderson..and they didn't even make the playoffs) and 5 or 6 really lousy ones.

At this point, I don't think it's really JR's style to fire coaches in mid-season, and I doubt very much we will see Rip or Jeff or Tyke jettisoned after 5 weeks.

Besides...I am of the opinion that it suits Richardson's long term agenda just fine to lose 12+ games this season...if the coaches suck...'all the better at this point' is what he's thinking...

the entire offensive staff will probably be out...I'm not against keeping Meeks on to help the transition..Scherer and Davidson are probably already getting their resumes ready...Fox probably already has a head coaching job lined up...

"It is what it is." ???

It isn't what it was...

Some good points here. I just want to add that fans are poor judges of coaching effectiveness. Other than the bottom line performance of the team they really have little insight into what goes on. The quiet conversation a coach has with a QB during a game can do far more good than a bunch of yelling, but guess what gets on TV? It is also very easy to "overcoach" players giving them too much information to process in a game where 1/2 second of hesitation can get you killed.

For a fan to call McCoy lazy is short sighted, probably wrong and certainly uninformed. Unless you are in the meetings you have no idea what is going on. At most a fan may see less than 10% of what an NFL coach actually does.