Are you in favor of Franchise QB or Game Manager

[TheRealDeal]

Look around the NFL, there are more QBs from the PAC10 and the SEC because those are real conferences and those QBs are tested week in and week out. The PAC10 has 4 or 5 QBs right now that will be in the NFL (Barkley, Luck, Locker, Fowles at least) because they don't play against inferior competition week in and week out. If you can't see that then there isn't much hope for you.

And you're right, Weiss handed him the job Week 2 his freshman year because he earned it lol not because of the hype coming in. And you are correct he had very very impressive numbers his senior year but again it was against inferior competition. In another thread there is a comparison of his numbers when he played against ranked teams and his numbers were turrible. You think that's a coincidence? For fun Moore's numbers against ranked teams in his career are up there also so you can see the difference.

But go ahead, buy into the hype machine. Don't open your eyes and take an objective look at the kid and make a decision for yourself.

Also, please don't come back with some bs response, I always love a good factual debate with some opinion sprinkled in.

[mav1234]

Ok, let me get this straight... Teams like Stanford, Michigan, and Washington play real competition.... But they aren't real competition themselves? Or what? Jimmy played both those teams... O.o I'm just confused. Notre Dame is independent, that doesn't mean they never play anyone who is any good, it just means their games are from a bunch of different conferences. So he did poorly against ranked teams, big deal.

Do you know how many teams are ranked in each conference? A handful. Do you know how many teams Notre Dame is playing this year that are ranked? A handful (5 that have been ranked at one point this season; Michigan, Michigan State, USC, Utah, Stanford, maybe others, those are all I know right now). Surprise! They play ranked competition, too. And he loses to them!? Gasp. A player losing??

Go check out how he did against the ranked teams he played last year. He did fine. He may not have completely lit it up, but he did pretty well... especially if you're going to use locker as an example of a great QB in a strong conference.

Jimmy came in during his freshman year because Weiss thought he was the better QB. I don't get how you can say "Weiss bought into the hype," because the guy performed well at Notre Dame. It'd be one thing if he started and never put up numbers at all while there, but the reality is he was a pretty decent QB.

This isn't about Matt Moore, man. Just get off of Moore for a second and look at Clausen without trying to compare him. If you want to make a post detailing the wonders of Moore's mediocre college career, go for it. This is about if Clausen had to "work for anything," and if he played "weaker competition." One, I don't think either of us can know (working for anything) because we haven't played on a team with him. The other... if his competition was weak, then what is strong competition? Playing in the SEC? 'Cause if so, the only QB worth a damn this year coming out is Mallet, and he didn't even get his start there...

[TheRealDeal]

First you are assuming I have never played on a team with him . Second you proved my point in your thread. I never disputed Clausen put up great numbers and I admitted he played ranked teams (2 his senior year) and you admitted his numbers were worse, waaaaaaay worse, when he played those teams. The conclusion you draw from that is he padded his numbers against weaker competition and struggled against better competition. See Colt Brennan and what happened when he played Georgia in the Sugar Bowl(?).

Some are defending his play as "rookie" play and pointing to his outstanding college numbers as proof that he is good but they are missing the point that his play now is not the exception, its the rule with him if you really looked into his career thus far. There are no more easy games for him. There are no games where he can pad his stats. Look at Bradford and you see an NFL ready QB. Look at McCoy today who put up a great completion percentage, nice yardage and a TD although a lot came on one drive but it's still more than Clausen has put up in any one game against a much better defense than he has faced all year.

Also, teams that are ranked this year that ND plays is not relevant because Jimmy isn't there. Just look at his career and tell me he faced the level of competition that all the other QBs coming out last year faced.

[mav1234]

His numbers were not "way worse" when playing ranked teams last year... at all. He still put up 2 tds and 260 yards against USC, he just didn't get the win. Against Pitt, he had 1 TD and 1 INT... one of his few all year. If you look at the games he played against good opponents that weren't ranked, you see he had some tremendous games. Some were ranked at the time of playing, others were after that game but not at the end of the season. Either way, the way he performed against Michigan and Stanford was impressive. You can't say that a player like Luck or Locker is a "real" nfl ready QB and ignore Clausen and how he did. When comparing his college numbers to Bradford & Mccoy, you have to remember that both those QBs generally had far superior D's to ND too, which can benefit a team greatly even if it reduces a qb's numbers.

Also, teams that are ranked this year that ND plays is not relevant because Jimmy isn't there. Just look at his career and tell me he faced the level of competition that all the other QBs coming out last year faced.

It is relevant,because the point is ND puts together a schedule that has some tough games. It plays some great, storied programs from the Big 10 and Pac 10. Notre Dame is rarely listed as having a very weak strength of schedule, despite being independent. I am nearly positive that their 2009 Strength of Schedule was in the top 50 in the country, putting them well within the "playing good competition" category, just looking at who they played.

As to Bradford and Mccoy, they are indeed good players and I am glad to see they are doing well. Frankly, both their offenses just look miles superior to ours today, because of the way their coaches are utilizing the talent, and yes, the way their players are not making the dumb mistakes. I really think this team is hurting on the O side from lack of veteran presence to help out the younger players... Could really use a veteran QB especially to settle Moore & Clausen down. A note on Mccoy: Though he did well and played against a tough defense, he didn't exactly put up amazing numbers. It's not like Jimmy has played against terrible D's, either. Just sayin', let's give Mccoy some more time before we compared him to Clausen to decide Clausen is a bust

Ok, so you have played with Clausen. Where? When? Why do you say he didn't have to work for it? I'd like to know. That would explain why you have such a huge beef with the guy.

[TheRealDeal]

I never said I have played with Clausen either. I also never said Luck and Locker were NFL ready just that they would be in the NFL along with two other QBs from that conference at a minimum. I also said that McCoy put up some of his yards and his TD when the game was well out of reach but his completion percentage was outstanding. NO defense isn't what it was last year and Chicago's isn't on the level of the Steelers.

I say he didn't earn it because I have eyes and can see what is really happening. I actually watched his HS games. That man had 11 teammates go Division 1. That inflates hype/stats. When he arrived at ND he had elbow surgery and didn't participate in some off season workouts. He had a mediocre spring game (3-7 23 yards 3.3YPA seem familiar) and was placed in a QB competition. Came in second game and wasn't anything special. Throughout the year after the starting QB trasnferred and Jimmy would miss a game here and there the other QB (Sharpley) played okay in his time but lost the job after Jimmy sat out two of the tougher games on the schedule (USC Navy) and Sharpley struggled.

Comes to Panthers. All reports are that he is far behind Moore in camp. Doesn't play that well in preseason. After 1.75 games Jimmy is handed the job again. You've seen the results from there. Jimmy looks like the worst QB in the NFL (not expressing my own opinion but other NFL "Experts" that the homers love have been quoted saying this).

You tell me something he had to fight for and win and wasn't handed.

[mav1234]

I never said I have played with Clausen either. I also never said Luck and Locker were NFL ready just that they would be in the NFL along with two other QBs from that conference at a minimum. I also said that McCoy put up some of his yards and his TD when the game was well out of reach but his completion percentage was outstanding. NO defense isn't what it was last year and Chicago's isn't on the level of the Steelers.

I say he didn't earn it because I have eyes and can see what is really happening. I actually watched his HS games. That man had 11 teammates go Division 1. That inflates hype/stats. When he arrived at ND he had elbow surgery and didn't participate in some off season workouts. He had a mediocre spring game (3-7 23 yards 3.3YPA seem familiar) and was placed in a QB competition. Came in second game and wasn't anything special. Throughout the year after the starting QB trasnferred and Jimmy would miss a game here and there the other QB (Sharpley) played okay in his time but lost the job after Jimmy sat out two of the tougher games on the schedule (USC Navy) and Sharpley struggled.

Comes to Panthers. All reports are that he is far behind Moore in camp. Doesn't play that well in preseason. After 1.75 games Jimmy is handed the job again. You've seen the results from there. Jimmy looks like the worst QB in the NFL (not expressing my own opinion but other NFL "Experts" that the homers love have been quoted saying this).

You tell me something he had to fight for and win and wasn't handed.

How many of those players from his school played with them on offense? How many of them do you think had their stocks helped by having him throw them the ball? You can't just say that he was inflated but he didn't inflate anyone else. A good team makes all the people on it look better.

I don't see how you think he didn't have to fight for the jobs he came in for. Maybe I'm mistaken because perhaps other football teams operate differently, but the #2 still has to fight for his job, still has to play hard. I wasn't there to watch his spring game so I'll take your word for it that he didn't play well, but Weiss gave him the job for some reason, and I don't believe it was for the hype. Look at how Clausen EVENTUALLY started playing. Perhaps Weiss saw great potential in him, perhaps he thought that from practice and film he had someone who, if they let him work through it, could be really good. His senior season showed that through; that's why I think saying that it was ONLY the hype that got him his starting spot is silly. If he never did well, sure.

Moore was yanked because of Moore first and foremost, and because of how the coaching staff felt about Clausen's ability to create a spark(and yes, because they think he may be the future), not because of how rich Clausen was or something. Clausen's senior season made many believe he could be a great NFL QB. When Moore got benched at the end of that second game, Clausen lead a pretty nice drive that he just couldn't finish. He had done similar things in the preseason. Since then, he has not been the "Spark" the panther were after, which I think may be why we see Moore again this season. Still, nobody within the organization thinks he's done if he sits... just that he was pushed along too early.

You can stop trying to act like you're covering up your opinion with NFL expects, since NFL experts also tag that with "But he's a rookie throwing to rookie WRs with no running game, what can you expect?" You, on the other hand, pick and choose what you want. It's okay, you're backing up your opinion, I don't blame you. I think it's too early to call on the guy, you're already satisfied he's never worked for a thing in his life, played terrible competition (despite that competition he played apparently being good enough to play in the NFL), and should just "ride the pine" for the rest of his career. It's fine. I think we can call this thread another one where we "agree to disagree."

My hope with the Clausen draft was that we'd end up in a Brees-Rivers situation. I still hope that, I just pretty much don't believe it since I don't think Moore is Brees and I have no idea what Clausen is.

[TheRealDeal]

The only problem I have with your post is teh part about ND. No coach will play a player they feel is inferior in the hopes that two years down the road he will be good. Especially at ND where you have to win now because of their tradition or something. It was clear that at the time Clausen was not better than the other two QBs on the roster but was still given the job. I can understand this move in the NFL because the player can be there for a longer period of time (the main argument for Clausen playing now) but in college you cannot sacrifice two years of bad QB play for one year of good QB play. You will find yourself unemployed. Basically what I am getting at is Weiss did not see Clausen as an investment but rather as a way to silence the critics and give them what they want, much like Fox did in game two of the season.

Other than that I'm glad you have no idea about Clausen, it's honestly refreshing to hear someone say that because there are so many people who are sure clausen is the future when he hasn't shown anything that would lead them to believe that. I have my strong opinions about players and I had mine about Clausen even before he was a Panther. I would say right now I have been proved correct but who knows what the future holds. I am being mocked now for my Clausen observations just like I was mocked last year when I said Sanchez would be a top 5 QB in this league sooner rather than later and this year he looks darn good, well on his way.

I was here before Clausen and I will be here after Clausen/Moore are gone. I'm a Panther fan first and foremost. Thanks for the good discussion.

[mav1234]

I just don't believe Weiss would cave in to high school hype alone having seen NOTHING from the guy, that's all. I believe he had to have seen something to know he'd be good one day. As you said, at ND, I don't think he gambles 2 seasons away on the kid unless he really believes in him... and I don't think he'd really believe in him unless he had a reason to other than his high school stuff. You have seen more of his early career than I have, so I have no idea. I saw games late his sophmore year, his bowl game, and his junior year, and I thought he was the real deal. In all honesty, he also played against teams I usually root against so I was disappointed he didn't pull off wins

I think the thing with QBs, especially young ones, is they often feed off how their team is doing. If a team is hanging tight, playing well, a young QB will play taht way, and on a team like this, they will often avoid risky plays that may have big rewards... like in the NO game. I think this is also what you are seeing around the NFL. Sanchez started out a barn burner, cooled off significantly, and is looking strong again. Know what else followed that pattern for the jets? Their team as a whole. I would not put Sanchez in the top 5 QBs yet, but he's on his way. His team? Sure. Sanchez? Let's give him more time. He is benefiting greatly from amazing coaching and a great team. I think that once people start realizing the plays he makes outside the pocket, they may be able to defend him better, but i may be wrong.

[TheRealDeal]

I didn't say he was there yet but he is surely making a charge. I also know A LOT about his career from HS to USC and a comparison of the two would be very interesting for all of you to see. I sadly to not have the time but I assure you the findings would be very indicative of what you are seeing lately.

As to your question in another post. I know Marc Tyler (USC running back/beast) was the tailback, one of the Matthews brothers was a LB (I think he plays at Oregon), and I think two of his receivers went D1. I remember a lot watching him play in HS that he would throw a lot of slant routes that went for a ton of YACs and swings/screens to Marc Tyler (who's family lived roughly two hours from the school, another Clausen roommate) who would just destroy people because he was a man among boys.

Just my observations from someone who watched him play from his early years not from someone who quotes ESPN and goes from there. Not saying you are because you said you've watched him play but there are others who do.

[Ricky Spanish]

i don't care anymore.

[mj4life]

alot depends on what you consider to be a franchise qb. any qb that a team feels they can build around(cutler,sanchez,rodgers,flacco,ryan etc) fit this definition.but for me the elite of this group(favre,big ben,brady,manning twins,brees) are true franchise qb's to me cause they have won big games & have the ring to show for it. so to answer your question i would rather have somebody you can build around instead of somebody you hope won't lose games for you.

[King Taharqa]

franchise QB, "game manager" is just slang for sorry to mediocre quarterbacking. "Game managers" are always "game managers" not because they want to be, but because they have to be.

[Anybodyhome]

I'm in favor of detonating this thread along with every other Clausen/Moore argument that shows up on a daily basis.

[Seamonk]

We just need someone who can win some games for us right now. Without a legit running game, without a legit oline, without a legit receiving corps.. we need someone who can make plays on their own. so to answer your question.. I'm in favor of a playmaker.