Rookie QB to Rookie WRs

[TheRealDeal]

Let me preface my post with this. I do not care who the QB of this team is. Whether it be Clausen I understand, whether it be Moore I understand, hell even if it were Armanti I would understand. What bothers me and a lot of posters on here is the moronic posts of people like yourself claiming we are upset because he didn't play like a pro bowler or claiming he outplayed Brees or that he's our savior and "Franchise QB" already. We want to take a neutral approach and wait and see. Let our eyes decide and not decide based on what were told is supposed to happen.

Now onto your question.

Moore should start. Should have never been pulled. All of the reasons we were told Clausen was ready to start and why he was the most NFL ready QB are not true, or they have since disappeared. Clausen has a slow throwing motion. Clausen stares down receivers. Clausen doesn't take chances. Clausen's favorite receiver is our 3rd string RB. He moves from the pocket too quickly and throws the ball away not letting plays develop. He is struggling with basics like getting snaps from center (4 times in 3 games? Unacceptable). He is inaccurate. Doesn't move the chains.

Onto Moore. He forces the ball. Locks onto receivers. Doesn't move around in the pocket that well but also doesn't flee the pocket. Tries to make plays when they aren't there. Usually starts games throwing high but it comes down later. Has a quicker release. Is taller and doesn't have balls batted down at the line as often. Moves the chains. Not afraid to make the receivers make a play.

When Clausen is in the game we throw a lot more slant routes because a) he doesn't like throwing downfield he doesn't like throwing between the hashes and when Moore is in the game we tend to throw deeper, longer developing routes. Moore at least has the ability to get the ball downfield and move the chains while Clausen is content going 3 & Out and hoping in one of those series his RBs break off some big runs. Our offense is designed to get the ball downfield and right now we can't. Moore has a bigger arm than Clausen and usually overthrows our receivers on go routes instead of underthrow them by 6 yards.

If you don't believe me take a look back at the Giants game. DJ (yes DJ) had some completions on 3rd and long that Clausen simply won't throw. Yes Moore struggled in the red zone that game but from the 20 to 20 he had the ability to move the ball and make plays. Also that TD throw to Steve was deep and over the middle, another throw Clausen can't/won't make.

So it comes down to a decision:

Do you want your team to be 3 and out and pray for a big run once in a while and put 6ish points on the board with a max of probably 17

or

Do you want your team to have the ability to move the ball up and down the field and take chances to make plays? With this comes more turnovers but also more points.

As was stated above, I want my offense to be able to move the ball and make plays.

Also, I don't think Moore's play in the Giants game was representative of him as a QB. Even then, he still put up 25 points in 1.5 games (16.67 avg) and Jimmy has put up 27 in 3.5 games (7.71 avg). Another ten points a game these last 3 would have been nice huh?

[TheRealDeal]

I welcome all thoughtful and real football discussion picking apart my post, in agreement or disagreement

[Brooklyn Bully]

TRD, so you think we should sign Moore to a long contract at season's end then?

[panthers55]

There is a fundamental difference between Clausen and Moore right now. Clausen doesn't know what to do and isn't even doing the basics. Moore knows what to do, has played at a high level in the past but isn't doing well right now.

So really the decision varies based on what you want to happen. If you are interested in winning this year you start Moore who at least has shown he can win in the past and might be able to win again. If you are committed to next year or 2012 and don't care about this year at all, then perhaps you go with Clausen for better or worse.

I am in the camp that says who knows if any of us will be here 2 years from now so I want to win this year. This playing for down the road may or may not work out. Just like Moore was given a chance, so has Clausen. Who starts now is really up in the air.

The sad part is until one of the two shows they actually win a game and score in the fourth quarter, who really cares at this point?

[TheRealDeal]

TRD, so you think we should sign Moore to a long contract at season's end then?

That's too general of a statement for me to answer. Depending money, years, who else is available, who is new coach, etc etc etc

[mav1234]

Why are you crediting Moore with only 1.5 games?

Moore is a bigger risk taker than Clausen. I think this is just because Moore ignores coaches telling him to take the safe route. This is why Moore throws so many ints. While he put up some yards in the Giants game, go look at how he did in his next start... He had the TD to Smitty and that's it. It is not a guarantee that with Moore in there, the offense moves.

Also, if we concede this team is indeed developing for the future, it is important to know what we have at what position. While Moore is still young and could still turn it around, it is more likely that Clausen will have a roster spot next year and Moore won't. At the same time, we're chalk full of youthful receivers that will benefit from growing with a QB... including growing pains.

Assuming Clausen can improve at all, then starting him can only benefit us in the future. While Clausen was reluctant to throw deep balls lately, he has made some deep throws; to say he wouldn't throw 20 yards is just not true because he has thrown 20 yards multiple times. To say he won't chuck it 30+ has some merit - we've only seen one completion from him at or over 30 I believe. He has a long windup, which I think has something to do with this. I don't recall that being an issue in college - I always thought he had a decently fast release, but maybe I was delusional. Week by week, he seems to get worse at reading defenses, too... which is not a good thing.

Many would argue Clause has a higher "upside," and that this offense doesn't need a QB to throw deep to move the ball. However, you are right that our current schemes seem designed to run and play action pass for 20+ yard chunks. This creates situations in which we are often in 3rd and long, which is not the best place for a rookie.

If Clausen DOES continue to stat, we need to keep mixing in the short passes to get him going, and then have him try some downfield looks. The couple nice plays we saw him make in early weeks down field were very nice throws for the most part, so he has it in him... just needs to be coached out.

If Moore starts, we need to work on ball control. To be honest, I don't care if we can get into the red zone a dozen times if we have a dozen turnovers there. However, Moore isn't afraid to loft a ball 60 yards... and that's what he does, loft it. He needs to learn not to. >.<

[WhiteKnight]

You guys gotta admit, this would be a funny situation if it was going on to whatever NFL team that you hate. I had a friend from up North that called me last night. He claimed that Clausens' play was so bad that he started watching the game and couldn't move onto other games just waiting to see what would happen next. He also thought it was the worst he had ever seen. He said that he knew that I was still there watching it since I had actually sat through and watched those 1-15 season games. I guess we both are gluttons for punishment.

[Proudiddy]

I wish some "fans" would get their noses out of his ass... The guy sucks right now. Yeah everything is moving 20x faster for him b/c he's a rookie, but he's not handling his responsibilities well at all. Manning wasn't great his first year by any means, and that was with Harrison already with 2 years under his belt already...

BUT, I'm willing to bet Manning didn't fumble the snap, what like 5 times now in 2 or 3 games? Then botch 2-3 handoffs in that same span. Additionally, Clausen had Smitty in there his first 2 games IIRC, yet he still struggled. Smitty is just as good or better than Harrison in his prime... The point I'm getting to is, Manning finished with a 56% completion percentage his rookie season, with about that same % through his first 4 starts.

Clausen is completing under 50% of his passes through 4 games. Another difference is, most QBs, even rookies, can hit a wide open WR who got behind the coverage into the end zone on a 43 yard pass... The point is, he isn't completing the easy/routine ones, and honestly, even if we had Smitty, Clausen has not shown to be any kind of threat in terms of the deep ball. The Stewart TD pass was a busted coverage, and if you threw anyone off this board in here and gave them the time, I'm willing to bet 50% or more could make that pass, you've done it playing backyard football.

I'm not trying to destroy the guy... I've said a million times, I'm pulling for whoever we put out there, but at some point you have to realize, he's not doing his part. I've also said I don't think it matters who is at QB right now b/c if Matt or Jimmy had an offensive gameplan and an OL worth a poo, both of them would've had better results. Jimmy was outplayed with his performance in all 4 starts on an individual game basis by an undrafted rookie QB (Max Hall). And before you say he's got Fitz and Breaston, again, Jimmy had Smitty his first 2 starts or so... We also have threats out of the backfield with DWill, Stew, Goodson... He's just not playing well at all.

And again, I don't understand why people are using Peyton as the comparison, he's only the best QB in the game... I think a more realistic scenario is Josh Freeman. He started halfway through the season last year, in a "rebuilding" year, and his WR corps was absolute poo and little to no running game, a franchise in general disarray, much like ours presently. His first start? He only completed 45% of his passes but had 3 TDs and 1 INT. He showed the ability to make plays and put a team on his back and lead. Clausen hasn't. Freeman threw 5 INTs against us last year, but tell me you didn't walk away from that game thinking, "They may have a franchise QB there." I did. He had a swagger and made some amazing passes and threaded the needle several times with a weak WR corps. His INTs were rookie mistakes.

Fumbling snaps and handoffs aren't rookie mistakes, they're mistakes, period. Freeman showed the will to make things happen, even if it wasn't there. Clausen doesn't. He prefers to quickly checkdown or throw it out of bounds before the play even develops. He doesn't prefer to throw it down the field, and with the arm strength he showed yesterday, I don't blame him. I thought he was suspect coming out of ND, and his play has been consistent with what I thought of him... I certainly hope that he can get it together and hope he succeeds, as it will save us either money, draft picks, or time, or all three.

[mav1234]

Jimmy isn't playing well, but our RBs are putting up largely pedestrian numbers because we aren't able to sustain drives. Clausen deserves some "credit" for that, but so do WRs dropping balls, OL not blocking or opening holes, etc.

Jimmy is certainly screwing up, and making mistakes. He hasn't looked good. But nobody really has on this offense.

I would say we have the worst offense in the league. You can say whatever you want about or skill positions with Smitty & our RBs, but yeah. Max Hall's numbers and play were not all that different from Clausen against the same team. The difference? Look at who scored what for the Cardinals. our defense does that, we win last week's game, too. So yeah. Heap the criticsm on Clausen if you want, he deserved it, but don't make it out like every rookie is doing miles better than him overall. Clausen's game yesterday was probably the worst performance from a QB I'd seen - except for Todd Collins'.

I think in another couple weeks, if we don't see more consistency from Jimmy, we can pretty much decide he's not "the answer." Manning stunk it up at times, but he showed huge promise on some throws. Jimmy's promise has more been making the crazy stuff work once in a while, than making the routine stuff... which is a problem.

[TheRealDeal]

I don't need to go look at any game I watch all the games live and and have almost as good a memory as you can have. Moore was not having that good of a game but he was not having a terrible game by any means and the most important part we were still in the game. That game you could tell the playcalling was extra conservative with Moore coming off a concussion and facing what everyone expected to be a terrible Tampa team. They probably figured we could beat them without throwing and we didn't much in the first half. Also if you remember correctly, Moore had 2-3 balls that should have been caught and could have gone for touchdowns. I'm not usually one to bring "IFs" into the equation but when you are using stats as the basis for your comments and not what you actually saw, then I must. Rosario had a ball hit him in both his hands, and even though his arms were fully extended and some will argue it was overthrown, he had BOTH of his hands on the ball and didn't bother to lay out for it. That is a catchable ball that goes for a TD. Also Moore overthrew Gettis on a go route but upon rewatching it, Gettis stops/slows down midway through the route which can account for why the ball was overthrown.

I don't think Moore ignores the coaches direction as you state. You have seen what happens when a QB plays it safe and if you listen to Fox in his interview after this past game he was disgusted at the offense as well and how little they move the ball "Playing it safe"

The Clausen ceiling is just anybody's guess. You stated many people believe this but didn't give me reasons as to why this might be true. Some say it's his pedigree. Just because two of your older brother's failed at this doesn't mean you have "pedigree." Just because your father bought you a good high school football team doesn't mean you have "pedigree." Just because your father paid for a QB coach for a ten year old doesn't mean you have a higher ceiling than a person who has worked for every opportunity they've ever had. Clausen's ceiling could be higher or lower than Moore's and just because someone said it's high doesn't mean it is. Clausen has been handed everything in his life. Moore has earned everything in his life.

Clausen has started. We have mixed in the short pass plays. Our offense looks terrible. He has his fair share of turnovers as well as Moore.

If Moore starts again I agree he needs to work on ball control. To say we will have a dozen turnovers is just as inaccurate as saying all he does is loft it. On his TD to Smith did he loft that ball? Yes he has thrown some floaters but maybe he's trying to let his receivers make a play (speculation on my part) because he has thrown darts in the past.

The basic direction of your post was speculation. IF Clausen can improve for the future...IF Clausen is here next year and not Moore...You are basically saying Clausen WILL BE the future of this franchise just because of his name when in reality he has shown nothing that would lead to the belief he can be an elite QB. Slow deliveries, low release points...those things can't be fixed. Do you remember when CARR (shudders) was coming out and they had clips of him throwing with ladders in front of him to try and change his release point? Not good for Clausen to be having the same problem.

[Proudiddy]

Jimmy isn't playing well, but our RBs are putting up largely pedestrian numbers because we aren't able to sustain drives. Clausen deserves some "credit" for that, but so do WRs dropping balls, OL not blocking or opening holes, etc.

Jimmy is certainly screwing up, and making mistakes. He hasn't looked good. But nobody really has on this offense.

I would say we have the worst offense in the league. You can say whatever you want about or skill positions with Smitty & our RBs, but yeah. Max Hall's numbers and play were not all that different from Clausen against the same team. The difference? Look at who scored what for the Cardinals. our defense does that, we win last week's game, too. So yeah. Heap the criticsm on Clausen if you want, he deserved it, but don't make it out like every rookie is doing miles better than him overall. Clausen's game yesterday was probably the worst performance from a QB I'd seen - except for Todd Collins'.

I think in another couple weeks, if we don't see more consistency from Jimmy, we can pretty much decide he's not "the answer." Manning stunk it up at times, but he showed huge promise on some throws. Jimmy's promise has more been making the crazy stuff work once in a while, than making the routine stuff... which is a problem.

That's why I brought up Freeman. Clausen is not making any effort to get it downfield and part of the reason for that duck he threw up yesterday was that he waited so long to decide to chuck it down there b/c he's hesitant to throw downfield. I've seen this problem from day one with him. Moore makes some stupid throws, but they're usually b/c he's throwing it into coverage downfield. Yet, Moore had 2 TDs to Smitty in 2 games. Clausen has one TD b/c of a blown coverage.

Again, not saying Moore should be the starter, and I don't think he's necessarily better than Clausen, but he made the effort to make plays. I don't think it matters who the QB is, b/c they're gonna all look like crap right now b/c of the total state of the team. What we need is the guy that looks the "less bad" than the others, lol...But, Clausen plays the "take what they give you" mentality to a fault... Which may be a product of being groomed into something that you weren't necessarily made for - you can fool a lot of people by having great mechanics and always defaulting to the easy play so you can avoid making the obvious mistakes. The average fan didn't watch Smitty run clear across the field on a drag or slant, with a yard or two between him and his defender and Jimmy throw it down to the flat in the opposite direction b/c it was the was the easy pass and he didn't wait for the play to develop... I did.

He's got issues. Can they be fixed? Yeah, but I don't know that he can change it if it's been ingrained and drilled into him. Truth is, he wasn't that great at ND, but it was ND and everyone knew who he was b/c of his background. He hasn't proven anything except as of right now he's a very below average QB, rookie or not.

[mav1234]

That's why I brought up Freeman. Clausen is not making any effort to get it downfield and part of the reason for that duck he threw up yesterday was that he waited so long to decide to chuck it down there b/c he's hesitant to throw downfield. I've seen this problem from day one with him. Moore makes some stupid throws, but they're usually b/c he's throwing it into coverage downfield. Yet, Moore had 2 TDs to Smitty in 2 games. Clausen has one TD b/c of a blown coverage.

Again, not saying Moore should be the starter, and I don't think he's necessarily better than Clausen, but he made the effort to make plays. I don't think it matters who the QB is, b/c they're gonna all look like crap right now b/c of the total state of the team. What we need is the guy that looks the "less bad" than the others, lol...But, Clausen plays the "take what they give you" mentality to a fault... Which may be a product of being groomed into something that you weren't necessarily made for - you can fool a lot of people by having great mechanics and always defaulting to the easy play so you can avoid making the obvious mistakes. The average fan didn't watch Smitty run clear across the field on a drag or slant, with a yard or two between him and his defender and Jimmy throw it down to the flat in the opposite direction b/c it was the was the easy pass and he didn't wait for the play to develop... I did.

He's got issues. Can they be fixed? Yeah, but I don't know that he can change it if it's been ingrained and drilled into him. Truth is, he wasn't that great at ND, but it was ND and everyone knew who he was b/c of his background. He hasn't proven anything except as of right now he's a very below average QB, rookie or not.

Yeah I agree with what you're saying, I just think they can coach him a bit and help him get the courage to sling it downfield. He has that in him. I think the staff needs to start by saying: "Look, don't be careless, but take some risks. Show us you have 'it.'" I honestly believe coaching & playcalling is part of the problem. Yes, our gameplan is to go deep, but our gameplan is also to be super conservative with the football.

Also, yeah, I think he is missing some of the openings and taking the easy way out. I don't like that, and I think that needs to change. He seems able to find Gettis, but not Smith, which makes me wonder if it's a chemistry issue. I would like to see some more out of him before we can him, but I think unless he really shows some promise, we're almost guaranteed a QB if we get a very early draft pick this coming year.

[Brooklyn Bully]

That's too general of a statement for me to answer. Depending money, years, who else is available, who is new coach, etc etc etc

Okay, so why would you want Moore to start knowing we may not re-sign him? Jimmy will still be here. Why would you want Moore to play if he won't be here for example? So we can win 6 games instead of 3? If so, ok, fair enough.

[TheRealDeal]

Okay, so why would you want Moore to start knowing we may not re-sign him? Jimmy will still be here. Why would you want Moore to play if he won't? So we can when 6 games instead of 3? If so, ok, fair enough.

Why is D Will playing? He might not be here next year right? Why is Kalil playing?