I still don't think cutting/letting go the vets is a big problem.

[Proudiddy]

On the defensive side of the ball where the majority of the losses were, there hasn't been significant drop off.

Diggs was lost in the linebacking corps, but they've been arguably the best unit.

Maybe some leadership was lost with the Harris trade, but that's really difficult to quantify, and with the exception of Godfrey's usual lapses of concentration (which would have been there anyway since god knows fox wouldn't have started Martin over him) the safety play has been alright.

They're not getting any pressure from the middle of the line, but it's not like they were doing that with Lewis last year or Kemo on IR.

Overall I think everyone would agree that the defense has been fine, and have been doing the best they can with the cards they've been dealt (being on the field for 45 minutes a game)

On the other side of the ball, neither Moose nor Hoover are even in the league anymore, so maybe we dodged a bullet on that one. We know that Fox loves sending vets out there after they've outlived their usefulness (rucker, morgan, lucas, foster, jake, etc) and as long as we're not getting production we might as well be giving young people snaps.

The problem as I see it is on the other end of not bringing anyone in. throughout fox's tenure, he's constantly brought in vets to fill in the gaps, and this is the first year I can remember that they didn't do that, with the exception of like ed johnson or whatever but who the f**k is that guy

i'm not excusing richardson or anything and please don't think I am.

However i feel people bitching about the cuts need to refocus their rage to three things related to the salary purge

• not signing a veteran QB. regardless of who was going to start at QB, they needed someone they could turn to for advice that's been through the rigors of an nfl season. as it has turned out, Clausen is the QB going forward. The only person he has to talk to is a shell shocked moore and text messages from Mark Sanchez
  
• not bringing in a veteran wide receiver. I literally do not care who it was. there is simply not another nfl caliber wide receiver on the team at this moment. steve smith has obviously not taken to the role of mentor.
  
  At some point someone like David gettis or Lefell needs someone they can turn to, and as much as I love the guy I'm not sure Steve Smith is the man.
  
• the scare with Wharton today, and the play of the offensive line in general, has shown that they might benefit from veteran depth. in 2008, the Panthers built their dominant line by signing every single free agent offensive lineman they could find then sticking with the one that rose to the top. I don't know how much that would have helped the offensive line with their early season struggles, but they're one twisted ankle away from starting someone you've never heard of
  

it's impossible to quantify the whole leadership thing, and the "young team" thing is pretty tired, but i think jerry richardson has really done his own team and the young players he was leaning on a disservice by throwing them to the wolves without anyone to guide them through the forest.

the offensive was predicated on two things: Moore being who we thought he was and a wide receiver stepping up. now that both of those assumptions have blown up in their face, it's clear that the offense will be ineffective all year, and his statement season might cost him far more.

It's possible that gettis, lefell, and clausen don't develop at all. we've seen plenty of QBs get shell shocked, and everyone knows wide receivers are a crap shoot. we might be ruining all of these young guys before they even get a chance.

basically what i'm saying is that all the cool kids have stopped bitching at jerry for leading the charge on cuts. that isn't having nearly as large an impact as him not signing anyone.

anyway here is a hot chick

This is the drum I've been beating for weeks now to all the "all u guys r mad b/c we dnt spend teh big $$$ in fre agencyz guyz!!!11!!" guys... It's had nothing to do with the money. It's had nothing to with letting veterans go... In all honesty, f*ck those guys. They're gone. It's done.

What it does have to do with, is not addressing positions of need with high-volume contributors available at prices that were below market value or even with it - Boldin, Marshall, Houshmanzadeh, Burleson, Walters, McNabb, Vick, whoever... It's letting Peppers walk and getting nothing in return but blowing a pick on a QB who should be playing QB but you've made him a project WR who's inactive every Sunday.

But instead of addressing these needs, you tell us those guys don't fit our plan, we build through the draft, we don't do "big splashes" in free agency... we. talk. out. of. our. ass.

That's what it boils down to. Don't use our "personnel philosophy" as a cover for the real motives - JR making a statement in labor negotiations, determined to get his pockets fatter and make us suffer through the process.

[twylyght]

On the defensive side of the ball where the majority of the losses were, there hasn't been significant drop off.

Diggs was lost in the linebacking corps, but they've been arguably the best unit.

Maybe some leadership was lost with the Harris trade, but that's really difficult to quantify, and with the exception of Godfrey's usual lapses of concentration (which would have been there anyway since god knows fox wouldn't have started Martin over him) the safety play has been alright.

They're not getting any pressure from the middle of the line, but it's not like they were doing that with Lewis last year or Kemo on IR.

Overall I think everyone would agree that the defense has been fine, and have been doing the best they can with the cards they've been dealt (being on the field for 45 minutes a game)

On the other side of the ball, neither Moose nor Hoover are even in the league anymore, so maybe we dodged a bullet on that one. We know that Fox loves sending vets out there after they've outlived their usefulness (rucker, morgan, lucas, foster, jake, etc) and as long as we're not getting production we might as well be giving young people snaps.

The problem as I see it is on the other end of not bringing anyone in. throughout fox's tenure, he's constantly brought in vets to fill in the gaps, and this is the first year I can remember that they didn't do that, with the exception of like ed johnson or whatever but who the f**k is that guy

i'm not excusing richardson or anything and please don't think I am.

However i feel people bitching about the cuts need to refocus their rage to three things related to the salary purge

• not signing a veteran QB. regardless of who was going to start at QB, they needed someone they could turn to for advice that's been through the rigors of an nfl season. as it has turned out, Clausen is the QB going forward. The only person he has to talk to is a shell shocked moore and text messages from Mark Sanchez
  
• not bringing in a veteran wide receiver. I literally do not care who it was. there is simply not another nfl caliber wide receiver on the team at this moment. steve smith has obviously not taken to the role of mentor.
  
  At some point someone like David gettis or Lefell needs someone they can turn to, and as much as I love the guy I'm not sure Steve Smith is the man.
  
• the scare with Wharton today, and the play of the offensive line in general, has shown that they might benefit from veteran depth. in 2008, the Panthers built their dominant line by signing every single free agent offensive lineman they could find then sticking with the one that rose to the top. I don't know how much that would have helped the offensive line with their early season struggles, but they're one twisted ankle away from starting someone you've never heard of
  

it's impossible to quantify the whole leadership thing, and the "young team" thing is pretty tired, but i think jerry richardson has really done his own team and the young players he was leaning on a disservice by throwing them to the wolves without anyone to guide them through the forest.

the offensive was predicated on two things: Moore being who we thought he was and a wide receiver stepping up. now that both of those assumptions have blown up in their face, it's clear that the offense will be ineffective all year, and his statement season might cost him far more.

It's possible that gettis, lefell, and clausen don't develop at all. we've seen plenty of QBs get shell shocked, and everyone knows wide receivers are a crap shoot. we might be ruining all of these young guys before they even get a chance.

basically what i'm saying is that all the cool kids have stopped bitching at jerry for leading the charge on cuts. that isn't having nearly as large an impact as him not signing anyone.

I'm lost.... exactly what veterans that we DO have on the team are performing as they should outside of Double Trouble and Smitty? I see rookies actually making plays where veterans are simply dropping the ball. Is there a QB in the league that would fare much better with the way the line has played? And just how good should a defense be when they are on the field WAY more than this team is supposedly built to be?

[Cyberjag]

i mean i don't think you can include hurney in this problem at all. he was never the one signing the check and all the evidence indicates this is coming from the top.

just because hurney is willing to fall on his sword on the radio shouldn't distract you from what is obviously the cause of all of this.

Later on in another post you say something about there being no evidence on something one way or another. So you get it, which makes me curious. What evidence are you talking about, other than speculation by columnists? The organization has been characteristically close-mouthed about football decisions, so when Hurney goes on the radio and takes responsibility for them I have to wonder why you don't take him at his word.

Is it speculation on your part (granted, it makes sense) or have you actually read quotes or seen interviews that make it clear JR is heavily involved in all this?

i maintain the team is one or two pieces away from being a damn good team.

I think that's what the coaches and front office believed. And they were wrong about a couple of the pieces, which is something they're paying for now.

at first, i was a big advocate of cutting some of the "dead weight" and defended it numerous times, but at the time, we had no idea that come week 3 of the reg season that these guys would not have been replaced.

i think we would be a much better team if we had kept these guys for at least another season.

moose could be helping us right now with mentoring the young WRs, and also could help by playing a few games while we are waiting for the wrs to develop.

i think that letting hoover go was a huge mistake. he was always better than average at opening up the running-lanes, and he was pretty good at picking up blitzes and protecting the QB as well. hoov was dirt cheap, and could really be helping the o-line who is struggling right now.

also, although vincent wasnt a world beater, he accually looked pretty damn good paired on the right side with otah. now that otah is out of the line-up, it is hurting us because vincent was at least a starting caliber olineman. now that the oline is suffering with otah's injury, it would be nice to have him on the feild, because if he was we could probably move some guys around in a stop-gap measure until otah comes back... an excellent example being moving wharton to LT, and bringing gross back over to RT while we wait for otah to come back.

the three of these guys could really be helping us right now, and all 3 of them if still here would be making less than the average pay for their position in the league.

we didnt cut these guys because of a "youth movement' we cut them so that jerry could save a reletively low amount of money.

Moose and Hoover were and are done as effective professional football players. It happens to everyone eventually, and it was just their time. Moose accepted it, and Hoover sat by a phone that didn't ring waiting for someone to realize he has gas left in the tank and made snarky comments to reporters.

I think Vincent is looking like a key loss on offense at this point. Last year we won with Moore because all he had to do for the first three quarters was hand off to Stewart and throw one deep every once in a while to keep defenses honest. They put eight in the box then, they're putting eight in the box now. And while Vincent didn't bring much in the way of protection, he was a good run blocker. That's what we seem to be missing more than anything on offense. The fact that he's still playing, and starting, says something about whether he can still get it done.

Our biggest problem yesterday looked like turnovers. I'm not talking about Jimmy's first pass--that was unfortunate but not a killer. The botched snaps were inexcusable though, and Stewart's fumble was a crushing blow. At the time there was a real sense in the stadium that the offense was figuring things out, and the game was in reach. But we lost the ball and a few plays later (how does Anderson blow the same assignment two plays in a row???) it was over.

We've got talent, but the team looks poorly coached and without any identity at all on offense. I expect that things will change and we'll finish strong, but at this point the hole is probably too deep for such a young team to dig it's way out of.

On the bright side, we're in the last to first NFC South, so next year ought to be a lot of fun.

[Cyberjag]

well when the panthers are bad it tends to make all the shitty posters go away and keep around only the people that somewhat know what they're talking about. now if i can just get pantherfanforlife to sperg out and rage quit we'll be in serious business.

secondly, there's always a very zen kind of calm that comes about me when i realize the panthers are just very bad and i can sort of mete that out to other aspects of my football life.

finally i got blown by some hot chick in the parking lot of a bar i hit up once i got back to atlanta from the game today and that chick could suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

You're from Atlanta? Really?

So you expect us to believe the following:

a) You work as a male model

You like girls

and

c) You live in Atlanta???

Come on, man. An openly heterosexual male model, in Atlanta???

[Darth Biscuit]

Fiz you seem different, what is it?

well when the panthers are bad it tends to make all the shitty posters go away and keep around only the people that somewhat know what they're talking about. now if i can just get pantherfanforlife to sperg out and rage quit we'll be in serious business.

secondly, there's always a very zen kind of calm that comes about me when i realize the panthers are just very bad and i can sort of mete that out to other aspects of my football life.

finally i got blown by some hot chick in the parking lot of a bar i hit up once i got back to atlanta from the game today and that chick could suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

Damn Fiz... Dpantherman is right... I actually like this version of you... I'm sure getting the BJ didn't hurt either. I agree 100% with your comments and I even gave you rep, because, well... that was a great post. :eek:

Cyberjag makes a good point above, and I agree with him too. I think that the o-line and their lack of blocking, particularly in the run game is a key factor here on offense. Watch Stewart yesterday, and on the fumble play... he's dinking and dodging, and not doing what makes him a good runner, going downhill... at first I was thinking he's got something weird going on, but I think the defenses are blowing up the holes he's supposed to be using, and used to having, and he's having to improvise too much.

[CLTPanther]

You can't call Moore a scapegoat when he would rather throw into quadruple coverage in the endzone rather than throw it away.

[err456]

film probably killed moore

DCs had an entire offseason to scout his tendencies. if you can't back it up with skill and going through progressions eventually these guys are going to find you out and make you look like poo

Agreed, add poor line play to it and he didn't have a chance.

[Fan4life]

You have to have " Blue Chip Players " we never replaced ours. Jenkins,Peppers, Diggs, Delhommmeeee, Mooooosssee, Harris, Hover. Did I miss anybody ????

[Razeyfingers]

This is one of the "thinnest" Panthers teams as of recent that I've seen. Otah, Davis, a few bangups. . all of a sudden we are struggling. It'd be nice to go into a game for once where everyone actually starts and. . OMG! :yikes: 28 is 100%. I dont think it has been a huge factor, but it has effected us enough that it is showing.

For whatever reason, it's looked liked were getting beaten at the line too often on a lot of critical plays. Regardless, it certainly seems as though our young squad could use some mentoring and they would need it now at 0-3 more than ever. . . well unless we go 0-4 or 0-5.

We'll see what happens to the O when Otah comes back. The Dude slides inside and maybe a few more successful running plays might give us lil sum'in sum'in on offense.

[Miaoww]

Smith's attitude is the biggest issue. He's a competitor, but he's unwilling (or unable) to mentor his fellow wide receivers. That's going to seriously stunt their growth. Not to mention rookie wide outs take at least a year to get accustomed to the league.

We needed a veteran mentor for them who could contribute straight away.

[natty]

Just because something is hard to quantify doesn't mean it's not important. Players like Hoover and Moose might have be at the point of hanging it up but I feel their presence is really missed.

[X-Clown]

You have to have " Blue Chip Players " we never replaced ours. Jenkins,Peppers, Diggs, Delhommmeeee, Mooooosssee, Harris, Hover. Did I miss anybody ????

That Hover....he's a legend.

[panthers55]

There is no other way to spin this folks. We finish last year on a 4-1 tear and then slash personel and gut the veterans. Then this year we play horribly and even the remaining vets play poorly and people still think the veteran cuttings aren't an issue?

Lets be serious, instead of going on for page after page about who we lost and whether their replacements are better or worse, which is all speculation, lets look at the reality of the situation. How have we actually played so far??

Who actually thinks we have played better? If so please line up for a thorazine tablet as you are not connected to reality.

As for playing worse it hasn't been one guy or one game but a combination of guys both veterans and rookies who have played poorly.

The thing is that folks say that our talent is as good as it was before. I don't agree at some positions but even if that is true, the reality is this team is not playing together but instead is making mistakes, giving up big plays, committing penalties and otherwise playing like the unexperienced team that it is.

Guys like Diggs and Harris weren't great due to their skills, but were exceptional leaders who made folks around them better. Right now that isn't happening.

Guys like Moose and Hoover may have been largely washed up but they still played at a much higher level than their replacements and would right now.

One of the things that happened yesterday was that Wharton got dinged. At the time I said to myself, who in the world do we have to replace him? He fortunately came back in but is he 100% or did he come back in because we have no one to replace him and even 80% of Wharton is better than 100% of whoever is the backup.

The issue is going to get worse as the year continues and injuries occur. There is little to no depth and when starters struggle we have no one to replace them with if we wanted to.

It wasn't just replacing the 9 starters but finding 9 other guys to take the spots of those who moved into starting roles. We are much worse off right now than we were at this time last year. We could pretty much define who the problem was then. Now, take your pick.

Worse is that last year you felt that we could work our way out of it or at least win a number of games. This year we could be the 2001 team except we didn't win our first game.

And if we go worse than 7-9 with this schedule which is the worse we have ever done under Fox, you have to be naive to believe that the gutting of the roster wasn't the main reason for it.

[Sloth]

Good stuff

Can't rep you, so pie.

Fiametta, who is younger and more talented than Hoover, unfortunately hasn't played to Hoover's level. Bernadeau, younger than Vincent, hasn't played to Vincent's level. Actually, he's flat out sucked. Schwartz gets a pass because, even though he sucks at T, he's an injury fill-in and will hopefully kick back in to G. Moose could come back today and out-perform our faster rookie WRs. Etc etc.

I think we just dumped too many guys at once.