Pat Y nails it on head about Moore

[Seamonk]

So now, depending on the team the dink and dunk is ok...earlier they weren't no matter what?

Secret for ya, I'm really surprised you of all people don't know this, there are check downs with EVERY TEAM in the NFL...EVERY ONE OF THEM! This isn't anything new and it isn't rocket science! The check down can and does work for any team it just takes someone to recognize when to do it and execute it properly!

Do you really read what you type before you post?

Your hate is strong in Clausen...strong indeed!

One more question for ya, when was the last time we had a real vertical passing attack...if you mean run, run, run, run, run, run, run, 40 yard pass thats incomplete, run, run, run then I guess maybe. Most of our passing yards has always come from dink and dunk passes...i.e. the screen pass to Smitty!!! BTW, those dink and dunk passes that will not work for us, apparently, are just an extention of the run game...most people here would say thats our strong point. As a matter of fact I do believe you, yourself, posted one time...let me make sure I get this right; "if you are running for 5 yards a carry why pass it for 4"...that sound familiar to you?

You should really stop hatin the kid and look for positives and how the Panthers can get better not how to belittle a kid for being what he is...THE FUTURE!

Edit: I am going to rep you though, at least you try

It's because when other teams check down, their receiver is usually a fast running back or a big Tightend who can get the ball 20 yards downfield rather than just 3 yards.. i.e. Reggie Bush, Jason Witten, Greg Olsen, and hey, what do you know.. Mike Goodson.

The Notion that check downs are bad is because David Carr kept checking down to Jeff King who only got like 5-10 yards every time, and usually on 3rd and longer than 10s..

[HPPantherzfan]

It's because when other teams check down, their receiver is usually a fast running back or a big Tightend who can get the ball 20 yards downfield rather than just 3 yards.. i.e. Reggie Bush, Jason Witten, Greg Olsen, and hey, what do you know.. Mike Goodson.

The Notion that check downs are bad is because David Carr kept checking down to Jeff King who only got like 5-10 yards every time, and usually on 3rd and longer than 10s..

That may be true but this isn't David Carr, Clausen has been checking down to his backs...he has made the correct reads and he is getting slammed because he is Jimmy! Besides, point still stands we have never had an effective vertical passing game!

[Seamonk]

That may be true but this isn't David Carr, Clausen has been checking down to his backs...he has made the correct reads and he is getting slammed because he is Jimmy! Besides, point still stands we have never had an effective vertical passing game!

I think check downs are good. Especially on 1st and 2nd down. 2nd and manageable, and 3rd and manageable are much better options than 3rd and 10+. Secondly, Clausen may not be good right away, but neither was Peyton Manning. Unlike most other QBs in the league.. his cockiness is because he works his ass off to be someone great. Someone who puts the Game above other things. He goes the extra distance and has the desire to win. Not to mention, his checkdowns kept the drive going, and if anything, will get defenses to acknowledge it forcing one less body off our guys downfield.

[panthers55]

So now, depending on the team the dink and dunk is ok...earlier they weren't no matter what?

Secret for ya, I'm really surprised you of all people don't know this, there are check downs with EVERY TEAM in the NFL...EVERY ONE OF THEM! This isn't anything new and it isn't rocket science! The check down can and does work for any team it just takes someone to recognize when to do it and execute it properly!

Do you really read what you type before you post?

Your hate is strong in Clausen...strong indeed!

One more question for ya, when was the last time we had a real vertical passing attack...if you mean run, run, run, run, run, run, run, 40 yard pass thats incomplete, run, run, run then I guess maybe. Most of our passing yards has always come from dink and dunk passes...i.e. the screen pass to Smitty!!! BTW, those dink and dunk passes that will not work for us, apparently, are just an extention of the run game...most people here would say thats our strong point. As a matter of fact I do believe you, yourself, posted one time...let me make sure I get this right; "if you are running for 5 yards a carry why pass it for 4"...that sound familiar to you?

You should really stop hatin the kid and look for positives and how the Panthers can get better not how to belittle a kid for being what he is...THE FUTURE!

Edit: I am going to rep you though, at least you try

You are like a guy who brings a pea shooter to a gun fight. You obviously don't the diffrence betweend a dink and dunk system from a West Coast offense or a checkdown from a hot read. So please don't act so condescending, it is clear you are the one that doesn't have a clue.

We actually run a version of a system called the Erhardt-Perkins system developed in the 70s while Chuck Fairbanks was at New England. It is often termed a run to set up the pass system using play action passing and deep vertical throws. It is predicated on running the ball which has them cheating up and then freezing them with play action and throwing deep to a receiver who hopefully is in single coverage.

Other teams like new England use a later version of this offense which has morphed into a multiple receiver package with as many as 5 receivers and an empty backfield especially with Moss and Welker since they had the personnel to run it.

But our version does not use short passing and relies on rushing the ball coupled with throwing the ball down the field.

Compare that with a West Coast offense which relies on short passing and using running back as receivers with mobile quarterbacks who can avoid the rush. Now tell me which system Clausen would do better in. Lets be real!!

As for when did we last run it? Last year with Moore the last 5 games. Moore averaged 7.8 yards a completion. In five games he had 6 passes over 40 yards and 14 over 20.

So no we don't dink and dunk, no we don't throw short passes as a steady diet. And what I said is true if you can run for 5 yards why pass for 4 yards. Well you wouldn't. As for the smoke routes to Smitty for example, the point isn't the short pass but to take five yards if he plays off and when he comes up to pick the ball,get the corner to bite on the smoke route and send Smith deep for an easy touchdown.

I don't hate Clausen and have simply said that unless he can learn better play action moves, learns to stay in the pocket and buy time until his receivers can clear, and can throw down the field, he is not ideal for our system. If we change things around and pare down the playbook for him while he learns which is what we did with Moore at first, it will help him be more successful. But he still won't be able to run the offense until he can accurately air it out and throw downfield. That isn't hate my friend, that is reality.

Why can't you accept his limitations without making all kind of excuses for him. Face facts, he is a rookie with lots to learn. He isn't a complete player by any means.

[panthers55]

It's because when other teams check down, their receiver is usually a fast running back or a big Tightend who can get the ball 20 yards downfield rather than just 3 yards.. i.e. Reggie Bush, Jason Witten, Greg Olsen, and hey, what do you know.. Mike Goodson.

The Notion that check downs are bad is because David Carr kept checking down to Jeff King who only got like 5-10 yards every time, and usually on 3rd and longer than 10s..

Checkdowns in and of themselves are not bad but they aren't that good either. A checkdown is usually a fourth or fifth read in many offenses designed as an emergency outlet when the other receivers are covered and the QB has to get rid of the ball. But for example a screen to the back coming out of the backfield is not a checkdown nor was the play to Goodson yesterday. That is where the ball was designed to goas the first option once the receivers cleared the secondary out of the zone. For example many West Coast offenses or teams like New Orleans throw a short crossing route to a back coming out of the backfield to get him in the open. That is not a checkdown most of the time but where the play was designed to go. That is much different from what we do or how we use the checkdown so it isn't at all the same.

When Carr was using them it was on third down when we needed 8 yards but King would be parked 4 yards from the sticks and had no ability to get YAC as you noted. And that was bad. But the other part of it is using a checkdown too often and not looking downfield or throwing it deep keeps the team from respecting the pass and everyone crowds the box which makes the running game ineffective as there are 8 or 9 guys within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. In our system an incomplete pass 30 down the field is more useful that a 4 yard pass to a running back. At least the safety has to respect the pass which sets up play action rather than knowing that the QB is always going to go for the short pass.

As others have said if you throw the ball 4 yards but need 8 yards it requires a great play by the back simply to get a first down. It is much better to throw it 9 yards where only a catch is required, not a great run after the catch. THat is where Clausen's 4.5 yards per attempt which hurt you as much as help you.

[unicar15]

Moore was not, is not, has never been the answer. Any other coach in the NFL would have just given the job to Clausen after training camp. Fox, however, feels the need to be overly loyal to guys who are mediocre. Clausen might not be better than Moore right out of the gate but long-term it won't even be close. So it makes sense to give him game action now....because like it or not he is the QB of the future for this franchise and I am really happy about it.

[panthers55]

Moore was not, is not, has never been the answer. Any other coach in the NFL would have just given the job to Clausen after training camp. Fox, however, feels the need to be overly loyal to guys who are mediocre. Clausen might not be better than Moore right out of the gate but long-term it won't even be close. So it makes sense to give him game action now....because like it or not he is the QB of the future for this franchise and I am really happy about it.

It might make sense to you to play the rookie and learn as you go but it didn't make sense for Fox. He wants the best guy right now, today, and up until Moore played so poorly, that guy was Moore. Fox isn't looking at what is best in the long-term since Richardson didn't extend his contract and he is looking at coaching elsewhere. He is all about winning now and will put in whoever can do that. That is why the controversy isn't over. If Clausen can't win and do it soon, he will be replaced by whoever Fox thinks can do it this year. This isn't about long-term it is about the now. He is padding his resume for his next gig, not worrying about how the Panthers are doing in a few years.

[HPPantherzfan]

You are like a guy who brings a pea shooter to a gun fight. You obviously don't the diffrence betweend a dink and dunk system from a West Coast offense or a checkdown from a hot read. So please don't act so condescending, it is clear you are the one that doesn't have a clue.

We actually run a version of a system called the Erhardt-Perkins system developed in the 70s while Chuck Fairbanks was at New England. It is often termed a run to set up the pass system using play action passing and deep vertical throws. It is predicated on running the ball which has them cheating up and then freezing them with play action and throwing deep to a receiver who hopefully is in single coverage.

Other teams like new England use a later version of this offense which has morphed into a multiple receiver package with as many as 5 receivers and an empty backfield especially with Moss and Welker since they had the personnel to run it.

But our version does not use short passing and relies on rushing the ball coupled with throwing the ball down the field.

Compare that with a West Coast offense which relies on short passing and using running back as receivers with mobile quarterbacks who can avoid the rush. Now tell me which system Clausen would do better in. Lets be real!!

As for when did we last run it? Last year with Moore the last 5 games. Moore averaged 7.8 yards a completion. In five games he had 6 passes over 40 yards and 14 over 20.

So no we don't dink and dunk, no we don't throw short passes as a steady diet. And what I said is true if you can run for 5 yards why pass for 4 yards. Well you wouldn't. As for the smoke routes to Smitty for example, the point isn't the short pass but to take five yards if he plays off and when he comes up to pick the ball,get the corner to bite on the smoke route and send Smith deep for an easy touchdown.

I don't hate Clausen and have simply said that unless he can learn better play action moves, learns to stay in the pocket and buy time until his receivers can clear, and can throw down the field, he is not ideal for our system. If we change things around and pare down the playbook for him while he learns which is what we did with Moore at first, it will help him be more successful. But he still won't be able to run the offense until he can accurately air it out and throw downfield. That isn't hate my friend, that is reality.

Why can't you accept his limitations without making all kind of excuses for him. Face facts, he is a rookie with lots to learn. He isn't a complete player by any means.

Why aren't you a coach somewhere? With the vast football knowledge you believe you have I think you would make a peewee league team CHAMPS!

[panthers55]

Why aren't you a coach somewhere? With the vast football knowledge you believe you have I think you would make a peewee league team CHAMPS!

I have coached before but 4 businesses, other obligations to family and community don't give me the time. Thanks for asking.

As for making fun of pee-wee ball, it is a great place for kids to learn fundamentals. Unfortunately too many programs have guys like you who don't have a clue thinking they can coach instead of enough like me who can.

[HPPantherzfan]

I have coached before but 4 businesses, other obligations to family and community don't give me the time. Thanks for asking.

As for making fun of pee-wee ball, it is a great place for kids to learn fundamentals. Unfortunately too many programs have guys like you who don't have a clue thinking they can coach instead of enough like me who can.

LOL

Ok man I give, I agree to disagree with you on this subject. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine.

[mj4life]

panther55 i agree with you in that clausen is not best suited for what is being run here now(in fact with our lack of threats on the outside it's the wrong offense period) you can still run some form of west coast offense(or any other) & still be a run first team. stewart,goodson & d will areour best weapons(outside of smitty) and we need to incorporate them more (rosario also)i am pointing out that clausen was making the right read instead of forcing the ball to wr's who aren't open

[panthers55]

panther55 i agree with you in that clausen is not best suited for what is being run here now(in fact with our lack of threats on the outside it's the wrong offense period) you can still run some form of west coast offense(or any other) & still be a run first team. stewart,goodson & d will areour best weapons(outside of smitty) and we need to incorporate them more (rosario also)i am pointing out that clausen was making the right read instead of forcing the ball to wr's who aren't open

You wouldn't run a West Coast Offense because by the definition of it, you largely replace the running game with a short passing attack and frankly most of our o line is not as good in pass protection as they in run blocking.

With that being said, there is a ton we could be doing. I am no o- coordinator but we don't present the defense with enough mismatches and run enough misdirection plays. We seem to telegraph what we are going to do and then wonder why it doesn't work.

For Clausen to be successful we need him initially to not have to read the defense too much since he won't know what he is seeing really. We need some 3 drop passes, some screens, etc. We need to throw to the tightends more and get Barnidge more involved. We need to line up two receivers to the same side more and run short crossing routes, stack the receivers and other techniques to allow them to get a clean release off the line instead of getting held up. That way Clausen won't be in a hurry to go to the checkdown since the receiver will be open sooner.

We need to use Goodson in the slot and put guys in motion. All things that Belicheck does with New England using essentially the same offensive scheme. I wouldn't want to pass as much as they do since we have a much better running game, but we can make our passing game much better with the guys we currently have.

[HPPantherzfan]

I just wanted to add that my coffee this morning is freakin outstanding!

[mj4life]

You wouldn't run a West Coast Offense because by the definition of it, you largely replace the running game with a short passing attack and frankly most of our o line is not as good in pass protection as they in run blocking.

With that being said, there is a ton we could be doing. I am no o- coordinator but we don't present the defense with enough mismatches and run enough misdirection plays. We seem to telegraph what we are going to do and then wonder why it doesn't work.

For Clausen to be successful we need him initially to not have to read the defense too much since he won't know what he is seeing really. We need some 3 drop passes, some screens, etc. We need to throw to the tightends more and get Barnidge more involved. We need to line up two receivers to the same side more and run short crossing routes, stack the receivers and other techniques to allow them to get a clean release off the line instead of getting held up. That way Clausen won't be in a hurry to go to the checkdown since the receiver will be open sooner.

We need to use Goodson in the slot and put guys in motion. All things that Belicheck does with New England using essentially the same offensive scheme. I wouldn't want to pass as much as they do since we have a much better running game, but we can make our passing game much better with the guys we currently have.

yea i meant incoporate some west coast principles to our offense and use backs and te's more