Don't Rid of Healthy stars: from my experience

[NewEnglandAFChamps]

Look, from my experience being a fan in NE, you don't build a championship team by cutting and letting go of healthy stars. Hell, you already have a championship team. You just need a lil tweaking and fine tuning in really only a few areas. Cutting Jake, and trading Peppers will get you know where. Back in 2003, we got rid of Lawyer Milloy because he couldn't stay healthy and his contract was up, but he COULDN'T stay healthy for us. So we replaced him with Rodney Harrison and not a group of guys. Ridding of a great star for a "group of good players" won't cut it. If you rid of a great player, you replace him with another great player. But only one, to leave some cap space for the following season. Just like Ty Law and Tyrone Poole as well, only reason we got rid of them is because of their injuries and success of Assaunte Samuel and Randall Gay. Thats another thing, wait and see how successful the backups and replacements can be for a season before jumping in the streets and FA to sign someone.

But a unique talent like Pep, you don't see his athleticism and freakish size for his position come around as often as he can change games and had what, 15 sacks this year. Even for a quiet season like some say he had this year, that is 98% better than most DEs in the league. You rid of him for who? a bunch of good players but not great? You can't build a team like that, sure they may play well but they won't be championship good. Peppers is though, you keep him or franchise him. You keep Jake as well. How you go by cutting and trading guys is saying..."OK, who has not been producing for us over the YEARS while they were healthy", and "who has been so hurt that they can't help us anymore". Then you build through the draft, not FA or trades.

We cut Antoine Smith, but aquired Corey Dillon. We let Milloy walk, but aquired Rodney Harrison. Then we drafted a Deion Branch WR who developed into a star. We traded for Randy Moss, and got Welker as well. We also let Ty Law go, but look in what we had in Assaunte Samuel. If you cut a player, replace him with an elite talent, or potential elite talent but only one at a time. And continue to groom you're current, save cap space. Draft a "SURE STAR". Sign a another star from FA only one year at a time for chemistry purposes and go from there. If any of this doesn't make any since then check me below if you have enough time to read

Let Ken Lucas, Na'il Diggs, Damione Lewis, and Tyler Brayton walk.

Jordan Gross will free up alot of cap space so as Lucas.

Aquire DT Vince Wilfork who has played in a 4-3 before and would thrive in Carolina's defense with Pep off the edge. He can also pass rush as well. And thats it as far as FA. Just Draft and save money for next season. Then go from there

So it can be ... on Defense - Peppers, Kemo, Wilfork, Johnson

Beason, Davis, Landon Johnson

Gamble, Marshall, and CJ Wilson

Harris, Godfrey

and on O...... you have the same crew, but with a healthy Jason Carter back. during that preseason blow out against Washington Redskins. He was a key playmaker.

[Towelboy]

i think i speak for the entire fanbase when i say: we don't want peppers to go, but he doesn't seem to want to stay around here. no matter how good he is, if he doesn't want to be here, we should franchise him and trade him for picks.

i'd hate to see him go, but when we offer the largest sum of money ever offered to a DE and he doesn't sign, that tells me he wants a change of scenery.

[Towelboy]

diggs will stay here and l. johnson will be cut. he hasn't produced and couldn't beat out diggs in training camp.

[photoguync]

Well thought out, insightful post. I agree with most of what you said, but I think Jordan Gross WANTS to stay here, where, as TB above said, it sure SEEMS Pep doesn't. No matter how good a player is, if he isn't happy, his negative impact in the locker room will outweigh his positive impact on the field (See Dallas or Cincy).

[Towelboy]

i hated to see kris jenkins go, but he wanted out. i'd rather have guys that want to be here than guys that don't.

pep keeps a low profile, but i don't know if he wants to stay in charlotte. it SEEMS he wants out, but we won't know until the post season what the team's plans are.

[Urrymonster]

Very good post to be honest and your line of thinking is worth taking on board. We can't replace Peppers. That is simple fact. He also very rarely misses games and on that part is very consistent. The same applies to Gross, the guy has only missed one game in his entire career and that was to a mild concussion. He also would not be able to be replaced from either the free agent pool OR our draft position, his only back up is Omiyale who is also a free agent (I believe) and has just started the one game in his career. Wharton is probably nearly as good as Gross at LT, but he just excells in guard so I would be very loathe to move him and I am sure the coaches think the same.

I would much rather sign both these guys up, provided they want to stay. Personally I think they are both professional enough to not be a distraction like Jenkins if they stayed when they did not want to be here. It's just not in their character. Consider these two as our 'major' signings from free agency, because if we do not lock them up there will be a whole host of teams fighting tooth and nail for their signature. They ARE that coveted, even for the simple fact that the will likely last the duration of their contract.

Instead we should look at the free agency pool like we did last year. Look for the hungry players who simply have been used in the wrong scheme all their careers, they will be cheap and we can bring in as many of them as we can for camp. Those that play well can stick, those that don't can try again with another team. Then we can draft players to be successors to the older guys or even the oft injured guys. We do not need starters from this upcomming draft. We need quality depth, especially on the defense.

Lucas, Diggs, Lewis and Kemoeatu are all in the last stage of their careers considering the positions they play and what we ask of them. They all are also just solid players. Lucas has been picking up small but nagging injuries for the last two seasons, Diggs was injured last pre-season, Lewis and Kemo both have missed time. On offense we just need depth for the OL.

I get a feeling that even if players that were brought it and out performed the 'solid' olders guys, the solid older guys would start simply because of the higher contracts. At other teams it seems to be the other way round. A big contract = a target. Don't perform and the young hungry guy below you will take your spot. So even if we got quality for the DT spot, I think we will be looking at the same starters (provided Gross and Peppers stays) come next season, regardless of what happens.

Gross is the premier OT on the market

Peppers is the premier DE on the market

We can probably sign them for cheaper than any other team will be able to, provided they want to stick here. We need to make sure they stay.

[Peppers90 NC]

I agree with your post but as Towelboy said, if Pep dont want to be here, I dont think we can make him play at the level he needs to play to win. Letting Diggs go for Johnson does not make sense, Diggs played solid this year and does not warrant being released. I was not aware Wilfork would be available and I would be happy to get him. Nor do I agree with letting Gross leave either, the O-Line seems to have a good chemistry and no need to fix what is not broke.

[raleigh-panther]

I really would like to know why Peppers does not want to stay.

Somehow, I don't think its because he just wants a change of scene.

[jramsey4]

Well it has been my opinion that you can trace back a successful team back to there Lines. On defense if the front 4 can get pressure on the QB and stop the run then the D-coordinator can be more creative with the pass coverages. Peppers had 15 sacks this year which seems like a dominating year for a DE but I watched every play this year and I saw peppers get stop by Rookie tackles and even a RB one on one a couple of times. Other then those sacks (which IMO are the most overrated stat in the game) he really didn't get a lot of pressure. The money he is going to demand doesn't match up to the performance you will receive from him. I think our interior line is one reason for this. When this defense was dominate we had one key factor that we no longer have a big play, big pressure, Kris Jenkins (at the top of his game). I hated to lose him but when a player doesn't want to be here you might as well save your money because there effort will not match the pay (just see what he did towards the end for us). We need to get a guy to supply pressure up the middle to force the QB towards the Ends for it tol be worth the money he will demand to keep Peppers. Did you say Wilfork will be availabile? If so please sign him, cut Jake to free up the extra Cap if need be.

On offense it all starts up front as well. Those big uglies not only supply those gaping holes to run through but they keep that QB upright and off the bench (or worse the stretcher). And one of if not the most important aspect of O-line play is constancy and continuity. The lines that stay successful are the lines that stay together. That has been a real problem with our team in recent years we keep trying to find replacements and moving guy around. This line this season was probably one of the best in our teams history. So FO don't screw it up. Resign Gross and bring in solid backups just in case of injury.

Lets face it if it wasn't for our run game this year we would have been lucky to have broken .500. Our defense needs a good kick in the pants. And our QB needs to do the only thing this Coaching Staff every asked of him, "DO NOT TURNOVER THE BALL" If this team can have a decent off season of signings and resignings we good easily win the Super Bowl next year. So people don't give up on this team just yet.

[Urrymonster]

Did you say Wilfork will be availabile? If so please sign him, cut Jake to free up the extra Cap if need be.

The whole point of this thread is that you do not get rid of someone unless there is someone else to replace him. At the moment we have no idea what McCowan and Moore can do on a week to week basis. Before you say it HAS to be better than what Jake achieved, think about Carr, think about Testeverde, think about the COUNTLESS back ups who play well in relief, get their shot at starting and then suck it up all over the place. Jake has had three BAD games this season. Get over it.

Secondly those who do not see Peps value keep saying, 'I even saw him stopped by a HB!!!'

Wake up people. If the player is ready for them, has decent technique and not left on an island then it is actually VERY hard for DEs to get passed them. I suggest you look at other players of similar calibre and you will find instances of the same happening to them. the fact is we scrutinise our players a heck of a lot more than other teams players. The flip side is that we only see the good of other teams players. It's called being a fan. You just see more of your team than any other.

The last thing we want him to be doing is tearing round the outside (where all the OLBs get their sacks) as he will run himself out the play and not be able to achieve anything. In fact he will be allowing them a nice place to escape either with a screen, a scramble or a run. When you have NO inside pressure DEs are pretty much in a no win situation unless the OL makes a mental error. His 'lack of effort' is actually called discipline. Without it he is a one trick pony. ALL premier DEs get stopped by HBs at some point and all get put on their arse by a rookie OT. That is because the OT has all the advantages and can use whatever the DE tries to do against them. It's simple physics.

[Urrymonster]

I really would like to know why Peppers does not want to stay.

Somehow, I don't think its because he just wants a change of scene.

He made a comment about that recently and dismissed it quite nonchalantly. Basically said - 'you guys do realise I do not spend every moment of my life in Carolina?'

I am pretty certain now that if he does indeed want to leave, that that reason is pure media and fan speculation.

It was in the article where everyone assumed he wants to go but was missed because it was right at the end of the article.

[Steel Panther]

I really would like to know why Peppers does not want to stay.

Somehow, I don't think its because he just wants a change of scene.

I'm guessing it could be a clash with the DC.:boxing_smiley:

[carpanfan96]

The whole point of this thread is that you do not get rid of someone unless there is someone else to replace him. At the moment we have no idea what McCowan and Moore can do on a week to week basis. Before you say it HAS to be better than what Jake achieved, think about Carr, think about Testeverde, think about the COUNTLESS back ups who play well in relief, get their shot at starting and then suck it up all over the place. Jake has had three BAD games this season. Get over it.

Secondly those who do not see Peps value keep saying, 'I even saw him stopped by a HB!!!'

Wake up people. If the player is ready for them, has decent technique and not left on an island then it is actually VERY hard for DEs to get passed them. I suggest you look at other players of similar calibre and you will find instances of the same happening to them. the fact is we scrutinise our players a heck of a lot more than other teams players. The flip side is that we only see the good of other teams players. It's called being a fan. You just see more of your team than any other.

The last thing we want him to be doing is tearing round the outside (where all the OLBs get their sacks) as he will run himself out the play and not be able to achieve anything. In fact he will be allowing them a nice place to escape either with a screen, a scramble or a run. When you have NO inside pressure DEs are pretty much in a no win situation unless the OL makes a mental error. His 'lack of effort' is actually called discipline. Without it he is a one trick pony. ALL premier DEs get stopped by HBs at some point and all get put on their arse by a rookie OT. That is because the OT has all the advantages and can use whatever the DE tries to do against them. It's simple physics.

agreed look at how small MJD is compared to de's and he's blown up a quite a few in his couple of seasons. Look at what steve smith has done to dt's on run plays. It's easier to stop a dlinemen then most think, everyone in the nfl is strong enough to dislodge a player if they need to.( well aside from kickers and punters. ) It takes a whole line to be successful in pass rush. You can't just have one player that is getting pressure.

[jramsey4]

The whole point of this thread is that you do not get rid of someone unless there is someone else to replace him. At the moment we have no idea what McCown and Moore can do on a week to week basis. Before you say it HAS to be better than what Jake achieved, think about Carr, think about Testeverde, think about the COUNTLESS back ups who play well in relief, get their shot at starting and then suck it up all over the place. Jake has had three BAD games this season. Get over it.

Secondly those who do not see Peps value keep saying, 'I even saw him stopped by a HB!!!'

Wake up people. If the player is ready for them, has decent technique and not left on an island then it is actually VERY hard for DEs to get passed them. I suggest you look at other players of similar calibre and you will find instances of the same happening to them. the fact is we scrutinise our players a heck of a lot more than other teams players. The flip side is that we only see the good of other teams players. It's called being a fan. You just see more of your team than any other.

The last thing we want him to be doing is tearing round the outside (where all the OLBs get their sacks) as he will run himself out the play and not be able to achieve anything. In fact he will be allowing them a nice place to escape either with a screen, a scramble or a run. When you have NO inside pressure DEs are pretty much in a no win situation unless the OL makes a mental error. His 'lack of effort' is actually called discipline. Without it he is a one trick pony. ALL premier DEs get stopped by HBs at some point and all get put on their arse by a rookie OT. That is because the OT has all the advantages and can use whatever the DE tries to do against them. It's simple physics.

Purely based on performance who would you rather have Peppers or Jared Allen because that's exactly the kind of money he will demand. And I know that a RB can beat a DE once in a while but when you are paying a guy to be a top 5 player at the position you expect him to break those blocks. That's like paying a WR top dollar and a LB or even just an average CB cover him one on one. Its all about the money. And BTW I gave a way to increase his effectiveness, get a great DT to supply pressure up the middle and force the QB in the DE's arms.

And as far as Jake is concerned you can't tell me we can't find a QB in FA who can Manage the game and not turn the ball over. Because lets face it that's all they need to do. And I am tired of everyone looking to what happened last year and saying that's was all because Jake was out. Last year we had a OL that played like crap and a running game that sucked. This year we had one of the best offensives lines and IMO the best running game and Jake played in quite a few games like he was wanting to lose. On any other team (except maybe the bears) Jake would have already been riding the bench. How many chances are we going to give this guy to ruin our chances of going the distance?