Yeah he is calling you out

[RealisticFan]

Jeez, my necks hurts from shaking it at some of the comments on here. The hatred for MM is obvious from some folks, the loyalty is obvious from others, and then there is a small number of logically realistic commenters.

My god folks, it was ONE game out of eleven. Be smart and wait and look for a pattern, before rushing towards judgement.

Clausen maniacs, have you considered the notion that he may not be great either? Are you ready to call for Pike by the 12th game? If that is how you roll with Matt then be ready to play that way for Jimmy. What is good for one is good for the other.

[Stroupe-a-loop]

My god folks, it was ONE game out of eleven.

I didn't know we had been relegated to the ACC. This has been a very tough week. . .

[panthers55]

Agreeing with everything the organization is doing, for better or for worse, is the definition of loyalty? Wow. I suppose that you have never criticized your children, friends or wife. That would be disloyal.

Come on, man, this is really twisted logic. Do the five NFL licensed Panthers polos that I bought just this past month amount to disloyalty? How about the Panthers jacket for my son, the pleather Panthers jacket for myself, as well as the Panthers denim jacket all within this past month bespeak non-support? Gimme a break! When Delhomme was sent up the river, was the FO being disloyal to him? I can go on and on and on.

Fans don't have to agree with everything that an organization does, and shouldn't be called all sorts of names, disloyal and not supportive because of it. I could turn the twisted logic around and say that accepting mediocrity is not being supportive. Being a brown-noser is not really supportive. Being a "yes-man" is not being supportive. These are stupid notions.

Everyone has a right to voice their opinion, especially opinion that has some basis in reality.

Of course fans have a right to criticize the team, voice their opinion, and say what they want. And it still makes them fans. But you obviously don't know what loyalty is. If you did then you know what I am saying. Letting Jake go for example was an act of disloyalty to the person but it was done for business reasons for the benefit of the team.

Buying 5 Panther polos has nothing to do with being loyal to the team as it currently is constituted. Wearing those polos when we go 4-12 and proudly supporting the team even when they are bad is a sign of loyalty. Wearing them when we are on a win streak and not when we are losing is not loyalty but bandwagon behavior.

You are the one with twisted logic or perhaps more accurately a lack of understanding about the term of loyalty. Buying merchandise of a particular team doesn't show loyalty or disloyalty. It can be done for a number of reasons good or bad.

When a fan is not supportive of a team's decision it is by the very nature of the definition being disloyal toward the team's specific actions. It doesn't make them disloyal of the team as a whole or disloyal in totality if they general support the team but disagree on a few areas here and there.

But by definition- disagreeing, being non supportive and critical is not being loyal of whatever you are disagreeing about or not supporting. But as I just said, it is rarely an all or nothing issue. Most folks are loyal to the team on some aspects and not others. And not agreeing with someone is often healthy. But in most organizations once a decision is made whether they agree with it or not, people who are loyal get on board and support it even if they don't like it. Folks who continue to voice criticism aren't being loyal. It isn't hard to figure out.

And if you had older children living on their own then you would understand what I am going to say now. I love my children when they are right or wrong. I am supportive of them as adults with the right to do what they think is best. I don't always agree with them and criticize some of their decisions most of the time not to their face to keep the peace. But it isn't about loyalty or not. That is not the dynamic at all. I discuss, criticize, and give my opinion when asked. But once they decide what they are going to do and I believe that they are going to do it regardless of my concerns, I go along with it for better or worse. That is where the loyalty comes in. Unless of course it is immoral or illegal of course.

[nagai]

Now I've had time to think about it, I think he should start the next few games. If he stinks it up in all of them, give Clausen a try.

Precisely. Look, unless you think you have some sort of godly read on Moore's talents, this is how it should be. I'm quite sick of everyone screaming apocalypse after Moore had one bad game. Give him say 4 games, something a bit longer, THEN you can pass judgment. It is of vital importance that we analyse both QB's thoroughly this year. Don't throw Moore out after one bad game and think Clausen will rescue us. That will be extremely counter-productive.

[davos]

Chill out everybody.

We are all expecting a new coach next year without a doubt...its almost a given. With that comes a new mentality, a new demeanor, and consequentially a new QB...maybe JC

Regardless, Moore can be good, but there's a reason he went undrafted, there's a reason he threw 3 picks in the endzone...I'm giving him a few more games before I really judge if he should be playing but seriously, lets wait and see. So much premature bologna lately.

[top dawg]

Blah, Blah Blah....You are the one with twisted logic or perhaps more accurately a lack of understanding about the term of loyalty. Buying merchandise of a particular team doesn't show loyalty or disloyalty. It can be done for a number of reasons good or bad...Blah Blah Blah.

Blah, Blah, Blah. P-55, sometimes you go off on the deep end.

I never said that buying paraphernalia was being loyal to the team, I said that it was being supportive of the team (The main way to support a team is with money---not the only way---the main way). When you spend dollars---whether the team is bad or good----that is supporting the team.

Now, let's tackle loyalty

Per dictionary.com. loyalty is defined as "the state or quality of being loyal; faithfulness to commitments or obligations".

Per the free online dictionary loyalty is defined as "the state or quality of being loyal", or "a feeling or attitude of devoted attachment and affection".

Basically, you are just another fan who can't tell me what my commitments and obligations are as a fan. And you certainly can't suppose to know my attachment and affection for the team.

You are loyal to Matt Moore. I am loyal to the team. I am also supportive of the team, as best I can be in these tough economic times, with dollars and cents. Anybody who knows me knows that I don my Panthers gear all the time. A half a week doesn't go by that I am not displaying my gear---rain or shine.

You aren't the Big Brother in the teal and black sky who defines the loyalty of a fan. You are just the average Joe offering your opinions like the rest of us. The problem is is that you obviously have a complex when someone disagrees with the world according to P-55.

All the semantics and dogmatic sentiment will not change the fact that "opinions are like ass holes: everybody has one."

[panthers55]

Blah, Blah, Blah. P-55, sometimes you go off on the deep end.

I never said that buying paraphernalia was being loyal to the team, I said that it was being supportive of the team (The main way to support a team is with money---not the only way---the main way). When you spend dollars---whether the team is bad or good----that is supporting the team.

Now, let's tackle loyalty

Per dictionary.com. loyalty is defined as "the state or quality of being loyal; faithfulness to commitments or obligations".

Per the free online dictionary loyalty is defined as "the state or quality of being loyal", or "a feeling or attitude of devoted attachment and affection".

Basically, you are just another fan who can't tell me what my commitments and obligations are as a fan. And you certainly can't suppose to know my attachment and affection for the team.

You are loyal to Matt Moore. I am loyal to the team. I am also supportive of the team, as best I can be in these tough economic times, with dollars and cents. Anybody who knows me knows that I don my Panthers gear all the time. A half a week doesn't go by that I am not displaying my gear---rain or shine.

You aren't the Big Brother in the teal and black sky who defines the loyalty of a fan. You are just the average Joe offering your opinions like the rest of us. The problem is is that you obviously have a complex when someone disagrees with the world according to P-55.

All the semantics and dogmatic sentiment will not change the fact that "opinions are like ass holes: everybody has one."

Nothing you said is related to the topic of loyalty at all. it is really is very simple. If you are loyal to the team and front office who were picked by the owner you would support their decisions, who they hire, fire, play and their moves and decisions whether you agreed with them or not. That is loyalty plain and simple.

What seems to hang you up and others is that disagreeing with them or being disloyal is a bad thing and it isn't necessarily. I have disagreed with how Richardson has handled the offseason and much of the moves they made. I have disagreed with much of their thinking and tight wad ways this offseason. In that regards I am not loyal to management and their thinking right now. I am critical and have been for months.

That still makes me a fan of the team and I will still wear merchandise and my jerseys and generally support the franchise. But I am not a loyal fan right now in the true sense of the word as I disagree with much of what they are doing. And that is where you are off base.

You are confusing the term loyalty to an organization and the decisions they make, which is what total loyalty is (something that a person like Hunrey has because he works there), with being a fan and selectively supporting the decisions you agree with. There is nothing wrong with what you are doing and I am not playing big brother. But clearly your posts and comments show you don't agree with the decisions that Fox and management are making right now. And that makes you disloyal to the decisions of the team right now. But again I am in the same boat for different reasons. And I have no problem with it. I think that blind loyalty in not a good thing and that everyone has the right to disagree and believe what they want.

You don't have to agree with me either. You can think and do what you want. But you obviously are very fuzzy about the concept of loyalty and that is what this discussion is about.

[rayzor]

you can be loyal to an organization and still keep looking for flaws and disagreeing with a charted course of action. you are delusional if you think that successful and/or growing organizations don't have massive disagreements in philosophy and in some instances despise what their organizations does when you think it's a mistake. airing it out in public or to investors is not a good thing but the disagreement within the org. is valuable to it's growth.

who are you to say that not toting the party line isn't being loyal to the panthers. you know full well that during the offseason you were really critical and negative about the changes they were making (while i was suggesting to you that what you were saying might not necessarily be true and to give it a chance before closing your mind too much). did that at any point ever not make you a panther fan or loyal to the team? you might think so but i sure don't.

i and others choose not to be blindly loyal to the team, opting to be love the team by choice each and every day regardless of how good or bad they do, how many good or stupid decisions they make, or how much they make me giddy or piss me off. It doesn't matter if i think the player is great, could be great, sucks or is most likely going to suck.

loyalty ≠ blind loyalty

you and any others who would question our version of loyalty to the panthers can feel free to kiss my sunburnt fat butt (don't ask). meanwhile, i will be more than glad to consider you a fellow fan and welcome you to this bandwagon were all on.

[panthers55]

you can be loyal to an organization and still keep looking for flaws and disagreeing with a charted course of action. you are delusional if you think that successful and/or growing organizations don't have massive disagreements in philosophy and in some instances despise what their organizations does when you think it's a mistake. airing it out in public or to investors is not a good thing but the disagreement within the org. is valuable to it's growth.

who are you to say that not toting the party line isn't being loyal to the panthers. you know full well that during the offseason you were really critical and negative about the changes they were making (while i was suggesting to you that what you were saying might not necessarily be true and to give it a chance before closing your mind too much). did that at any point ever not make you a panther fan or loyal to the team? you might think so but i sure don't.

i and others choose not to be blindly loyal to the team, opting to be love the team by choice each and every day regardless of how good or bad they do, how many good or stupid decisions they make, or how much they make me giddy or piss me off. It doesn't matter if i think the player is great, could be great, sucks or is most likely going to suck.

loyalty ≠ blind loyalty

you and any others who would question our version of loyalty to the panthers can feel free to kiss my sunburnt fat butt (don't ask). meanwhile, i will be more than glad to consider you a fellow fan and welcome you to this bandwagon were all on.

You obviously didn't read my post or you wouldn't be ranting about things I already pointed out.

Hurney is loyal to the organization and totes the party line as does John Fox. I am positive that they had lots to say about Richardson decisions about getting rid of Jake, Moose and others. I am sure that there was lots of heated discussion behind closed doors. That is normal in any organization. But the reason that hasn't been aired is that once the decision is made, everyone has to get on board and speak in one voice. Anyone who doesn't or would criticize the company decisions would be reprimanded or fired for being disloyal or being insubordinate. And that is the bottom line. Loyalty is supporting and going along with the decisions of the team regardless of whether you agree or not. In a job situation if you disagree you are fired. But they can't exactly fire us as fans so we can say or do what we want. But the concept of loyalty remains the same.

As for me, I already said that I am not being loyal right not and disagree with how they handled things over the offseason and some of the current decisions. As such I am not a loyal fan right now. it doesn't mean I don't wear my panthers gear, go to games and root for the team or players. That makes me a supportive fan perhaps even rabid but I am defintely not loyal to management and their decisions. And I have no problem with that. As for blind loyalty not equaling loyalty, of course it does. Blind loyalty is simply a more total manifestation of the concept. Should we all show blind loyalty? Of course not. You seem hung on the concept that being disloyal is a bad thing which I don't think it is. If you don't agree with what they are doing you have every right to disagree. And you can still be a fan and not be supportive or loyal to mangement and their iideas. Or you can be selectively supportive of some decisions and not others. But that is not loyalty by definition or most common practice.

[rayzor]

i think you are bing loyal. is it disloyal to point out an iceburg that you might be heading straight towards and questioning the ships aversion to hanging course? i don't think so. being against their decision making when you see mistakes being made or when you point out mistakes that might be down the path management takes them might mean that you are more loyal to the team than management.

while some people might be blindly loyal to an organization, the management chosen to led the organization could be out to only protect or further their own self interest.

loosely pulling out the example of enron.... that company and their stockholders could have used someone standing up against the company early on, questioning management and calling them to task for encouraging creative accounting practices. they could have used a investor or some other interested party who noticed some red flags and let them know about it or called them on it. those trying to make the company look better than it did and who tried covering up their actions were doing enron no good and were really not loyal to the company. anyone who went against management in their judgment errors out of their love for the company would have shown more loyalty to enron.

no i am in no way saying that hurney/JR are being unethical, but there are times that management and owners make a mistake and calling them on it doesn't imply a lack of loyalty. if you are doing it because you have a deep seated interest in the team and want them to be better then you are still being loya, just not blindly loyal. if you want to label them or yourself as being disloyal, have at it. that doesn't mean you/they really are.

[panthers55]

no i am in no way saying that hurney/JR are being unethical, but there are times that management and owners make a mistake and calling them on it doesn't imply a lack of loyalty. if you are doing it because you have a deep seated interest in the team and want them to be better then you are still being loya, just not blindly loyal. if you want to label them or yourself as being disloyal, have at it. that doesn't mean you/they really are.

This is where we disagree. By definition if you call someone out or blow the whistle for example on a company you are definitely not being loyal by any definition of the word. However you might be doing the right thing and what needs to be done. Enron went bankrupt due to the scandal?? Killing the company is not being loyal by any definition.

If you have a deep seated interest in the team and want them better and do so by disagreeing with the company then you are not loyal. You might be right but that is not loyalty. You just seem to be hung on the fact that being disloyal is bad and it isn't. If you don't agree with something you have every right to oppose it. But like what happened in the revolutionary war, folks who supported the crown were termed loyalists. They were wrong but they were the loyal ones not all of the colonists who fought for America.

Stop being so rigid in your thinking, it isn't a hard concept.