Fox to Cleveland?

[Cyberjag]

Ken Whisenhunt - Took over one of the worst franchises in professional sports that had only won 1 playoff game in the last 50 years and instantly made them a perenial playoff team. And they were 5-11 when he inherited them.

Four wins more than what Fox had, in a weak division, and with a HOF QB. Two years isn't perennial either, all he's done is made them competitive against the Rams, Seahawks, and 49ers. This is a very hard sell.

Jeff Fisher- Really? Fisher has had back to back playoff teams on several occasions. Something Fox has yet to do.

He's also had a 4 win and a 5 win season, something Fox has yet to do.

Shanahan - Shanahan still had the broncos in the playoffs several times after Elway retired. He is a shoe in for the HOF. Its not even debateable if he's better than Fox or Seifert.

I think he's another Seiffert, and I guess we'll find out with Washington.

John Harbagh inherited a 5-11 team with a terrible offense and went to an AFC title game with a rookie QB in his first season and made another deep run last year.

You missed the amazing defense part, didn't you? How many coaches would like to inherit Ray Lewis? Wait until he has to deal with just his own players. At best, you get a "Jury is out" here.

McCarthy - Inherited a bad 4-12 team and turned them into an offensive power house by taking a chance with an unknown QB. Something Fox would be terrified to do.

Unknown as in Aaron Rodgers, first round draft pick, or unknown as in Jake Delhomme, undrafted Free Agent from New Orleans? McCarthy inherited a team with gobs of talent.

Sparano - inherited a 1-15 with no talent. Had a great draft in 2008 and won a division in his first year.

and went 7-9 when Brady got healthy again. He's not looking good lately.

Coughlin - Might want to do some research before you throw poo up on the wall and hope that it sticks. Coughlin took an expansion team to the playoffs 5 out of their first 6 years including two AFC title games and has taken the Giants to the playoffs 4 out of 6 years. Oh yeah, and he also won this thing called the SB. If you were referring to last season the team was injured. In fact, they were in the playoff hunt until week 16. Frankly, Fox isnt even in Coughlins league because he is far more consistent.

Coughlin's teams quit on him. When he's good, he's great, but when he's not, he's awful. But you have an argument with him.

Rex Ryan: GOD!

A first year 9-7 coach, who inherited a 9-7 team. Come on...

Mike Tomlin: If 9-7 is his worst season after winning the SB then it must speak volumes to how good he is.

He inherited a world of talent that Cowher put together. I'm not saying he's bad, but he hasn't done anything to show how brilliant he is other than blitz Warner a lot.

Singletary: Took over a bad 49ers and has made them respectable. You guys give Fox kudos for going 8-8 with a roster full of talent. Singletary has done it with hardly any talent at all. Can you say Alex Smith?

Fox inherited a basket case and had them in the Super Bowl in his second year. You're banking on potential, Singletary hasn't even had a winning record yet.

Norv Turner: Ill admit this might have been a reach. Im impressed with what he has done in SD. At worst, Turer is equal to Fox.

Childress: Fox already has a great running game and a good defense

Which he had to build, and that he did more with in the same time span.

Lewis: Has accomplished almost as much as Fox in the same amount of time.

But not as much.

Happy? I've engaged in pointless debating for someone who won't rate Fox honestly until he's with another team, if even then.

[Cyberjag]

So when Fox went to the SB in his second season you reserved calling him better than some of the coaches that had been around longer? I seriously doubt that. Fact is, what alot of these coaches have accomplished in their first 2-3 years is pure genius and they deserve to be recognized for it especially when you consider what the inherited. They have been far more consistent in a short period of time than Fox has been over an 8 year span. If they fizzle like Fox the way he did after his 2nd season then you can bump this thread later on. I call it like I see it and these coaches are simply better than Fox no ifs, no buts, no ands about it. You're obviously a guy who doesnt like change and are still clinging onto 2003. Time to let go son! Time to let go! You wont have a choice but to let go after this season once Fox is gone.

When Fox got to the Super Bowl I knew we had a good one, and I did not reserve calling him better than some who had been around longer. I didn't argue about Payton either, he's got it going on. Fox accomplished a ton in his first few years, and has kept the Panthers competitive ever since, in a very tough division. In that time, he's gone through almost an entire roster of personnel multiple coordinators, and coaching changes at all of his division rivals. And he's been solid. Dull, but solid. And that consistency thing is hard to keep going for more than a couple years at a time, yet he's kept it going.

[PantherBob]

Four wins more than what Fox had, in a weak division, and with a HOF QB. Two years isn't perennial either, all he's done is made them competitive against the Rams, Seahawks, and 49ers. This is a very hard sell.

He's also had a 4 win and a 5 win season, something Fox has yet to do.

I think he's another Seiffert, and I guess we'll find out with Washington.

You missed the amazing defense part, didn't you? How many coaches would like to inherit Ray Lewis? Wait until he has to deal with just his own players. At best, you get a "Jury is out" here.

Unknown as in Aaron Rodgers, first round draft pick, or unknown as in Jake Delhomme, undrafted Free Agent from New Orleans? McCarthy inherited a team with gobs of talent.

and went 7-9 when Brady got healthy again. He's not looking good lately.

Coughlin's teams quit on him. When he's good, he's great, but when he's not, he's awful. But you have an argument with him.

A first year 9-7 coach, who inherited a 9-7 team. Come on...

He inherited a world of talent that Cowher put together. I'm not saying he's bad, but he hasn't done anything to show how brilliant he is other than blitz Warner a lot.

Fox inherited a basket case and had them in the Super Bowl in his second year. You're banking on potential, Singletary hasn't even had a winning record yet.

Which he had to build, and that he did more with in the same time span.

But not as much.

Happy? I've engaged in pointless debating for someone who won't rate Fox honestly until he's with another team, if even then.

Whisenhunt: Do the Eagles, Panthers, Falcons, and packers play in the NFC West too? Nope, but he had no problems beating them in the playoffs now did he? How about the steelers? He sure gave the a run for their money in the SB wouldnt you say? And he's already accomplished what John Fox has yet to do in a very short period of time...back to back playoff apearances coaching for the worst franchise in the NFL.

Fisher: A losing season is a losing season wether its 4 wins, 5 wins, or 7 wins. Fox has had plenty of those too.

Shanahan: Then you know nothing about football.

Harbaugh: You missed the terrible offense and winning with a rookie QB/RB duo and no recievers didnt you?

McCarthy: He already had a future HOF and he still took a gamble. No one had any clue if Rogers was going to be any good. He fell further than Brady Quinn did on his draft day.

Sparono: 7-9 with his starting QB and RB on IR and the toughest schedule in the NFL. Of coarse he had no problems beating John Fox with those backups.

Coughlin: His team never quit. They were devested with injuries on defense. They still had a legit shot to make the playoffs through week 16. If they quit that wouldnt have been possible. More times than not Coughlin has been very good.

Tomlin: Yes he did. He won the freakin SB!!!!

Rex Ryan: A 9-7 team with a rookie QB

Fox inherited the best draft class in panther history and the 2nd pick in the 2002 draft to stock pile more talent. He came into a very good situation and did well with it the first few years.

[PantherBob]

When Fox got to the Super Bowl I knew we had a good one, and I did not reserve calling him better than some who had been around longer. I didn't argue about Payton either, he's got it going on. Fox accomplished a ton in his first few years, and has kept the Panthers competitive ever since, in a very tough division. In that time, he's gone through almost an entire roster of personnel multiple coordinators, and coaching changes at all of his division rivals. And he's been solid. Dull, but solid. And that consistency thing is hard to keep going for more than a couple years at a time, yet he's kept it going.

2 winning seasons in 6 years since that SB. That is definitely not consistent. I guess your standards are very low.

[Cyberjag]

Whisenhunt: Do the Eagles, Panthers, Falcons, and packers play in the NFC West too? Nope, but he had no problems beating them in the playoffs now did he? How about the steelers? He sure gave the a run for their money in the SB wouldnt you say? And he's already accomplished what John Fox has yet to do in a very short period of time...back to back playoff apearances coaching for the worst franchise in the NFL.

One stretch of games for a hot team riding on a HOF QB doesn't make the coach a genius. See where he is without Warner. And winning a truly bad division twice doesn't make you a great coach either. He also inherited Fitz, Boldin to go along with his QB.

Fisher: A losing season is a losing season wether its 4 wins, 5 wins, or 7 wins. Fox has had plenty of those too.

Point taken earlier, Fox is more consistent, Fisher has higher highs and lower lows.

Shanahan: Then you know nothing about football.

Seiffert was the winningest coach in football when he became the coach of the Panthers. Some people learn enough from history to be cautious. We'll see with Washington.

Harbaugh: You missed the terrible offense and winning with a rookie QB/RB duo and no recievers didnt you?

You missed a 5-11 team one year removed from 13-3, with enough talent on the defensive side of the ball to contend for a Super Bowl. That team was and is loaded on the defensive side, all Harbaugh has done is draft a QB in the first round and given him a conservative game plan.

McCarthy: He already had a future HOF and he still took a gamble. No one had any clue if Rogers was going to be any good. He fell further than Brady Quinn did on his draft day.

You act like the cupboard was bare. He was handed a team that had one bad year after four great ones, a hall of fame QB, and lots of talent on both sides of the ball. Where is the greatness there? He's had all that and what does he have to show for it? Nothing yet.

Sparono: 7-9 with his starting QB and RB on IR and the toughest schedule in the NFL. Of coarse he had no problems beating John Fox with those backups.

Yeah, because Fox has never had to deal with injuries...

Coughlin: His team never quit. They were devested with injuries on defense. They still had a legit shot to make the playoffs through week 16. If they quit that wouldnt have been possible. More times than not Coughlin has been very good.

Right, so you have an argument. I would take Fox over him, but I would take Coughlin as a DC in a heartbeat.

Tomlin: Yes he did. He won the freakin SB!!!!

Again,with someone else's team.

Fox inherited the best draft class in panther history and the 2nd pick in the 2002 draft to stock pile more talent. He came into a very good situation and did well with it the first few years.

So he got a collection of rookies with potential, developed them while augmenting his team with free agents, continued to build through the draft, and after eight years has a winning record despite all the injuries, despite never having a star quarterback, despite playing in a division where everyone's been to the Super Bowl and two teams have won it, and despite the lack of dominate units on either side of the ball. And that's not good coaching?

[AceMan]

Fox has lost this team

[Cyberjag]

Fox has lost this team

Based on what???

[Mother Grabber]

He's lost this message board...

[frash.exe]

...sign #46 that this message board's lost its potency of originality and thought provocation

this is about the 1400th person Cyberjag's had this same kind of argument with

[Zod]

2 winning seasons since the superbowl run?

Ugh, that is disgusting and all anyone needs to see.

[Wither]

2 winning seasons since the superbowl run?

Ugh, that is disgusting and all anyone needs to see.

Two productive threads since the beginning of August?

Ugh, that is all anyone needs to see.

Also, I applaud CyberJag for his attempts to persuade those that argue against his points. Valiant effort, my friend.

[Zod]

Yes, cyberjag does a great job of pointing out some of the good things Fox has done and challenges he has had along the way. Ironically he would make a good union rep.

Sad news is that Fox has been unable to put a good team on the field with any consistency. Being good 40% of the time is not the mark of a head coach with a future in JR's gameplan, imo. Believe me, that is the only thing JR concerns himself with. Not all the minute details. He asks himself one thing... does he win. Well yeah, sure he does... 40% of the time?

[Cyberjag]

If you grade seasons as won or lost, 40%. But that puts 1-15 in the same light as 7-9, which is a gross oversimplification. If you go by games, Fox has won 71. That's more than Tampa Bay (60), Atlanta (63), and New Orleans (66) have over the same span. It almost seems like people here think that winning in the NFL is easy or something.

You might not like his style, but to suggest he's a bad coach flies in the face of logic.

[Zod]

This isn't horse shoes or hand grenades.

There is winning, and losing. Being close sucks a hind tit.

I did not say he was a bad coach now did I? I said he is a coach that has been unable to put together a winning effort consistently. That is a perfectly accurate statement. Is that good enough for some people here? Apparently. Is that good enough for everyone? Nope.

I for one would welcome the opportunity to find the next great head coach at the risk of continuing to be inconsistent or worse.