Panthers Top 15 Paid Players at Position

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

True. So you can say that he is not worth the money because he has missed a bunch of games - and thats a fair argument. But you can also say that when he is available he is 'one of' the best CB's in the league. 

But now you need to value that. I doubt that he takes a deal worth less then he did (obviously) so then you need to determine is the draft pick we are going to get back for him worth it. 

So you can do what we did, or you can trade the player, thereby making the defence worse, but you have most cap space sitting there. 

So on sundays when we are getting blown out, you can still feel good that we have a lot of cap space. 

I mean....you are aware that we had a historically bad defense with him playing almost the whole schedule last year, right?

There is no single player on this defensive roster that is going to be able to single handedly elevate a pretty talent deficient group. 

Statistically, Horn had his worst year as a professional football player by several measures. You think it might have something to do with that historically bad defense in front of him?

So, sadly, subtracting him next season probably wouldn't have the dramatic impact you think because we are still very likely to have a pretty bad defense overall.

That's just gonna take some time to remedy. Hence the youth movement with the defensive FA signings. This isn't putting a fresh coat of paint on a dump like Rhule and Fitterer did over and over. This is a long term concerted effort to get younger and slowly put together an actual "core."

Prior to the Horn deal, that "core" was literally just Derrick Brown.

[CRA]

24 minutes ago, Shocker said:

Horn is one of the top corners in the league.  GTFH with that

Jayce Horn is the Jeff Otah of corners.    

 

[CanadianCat]

2 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I mean....you are aware that we had a historically bad defense with him playing almost the whole schedule last year, right?

There is no single player on this defensive roster that is going to be able to single handedly elevate a pretty talent deficient group. 

Statistically, Horn had his worst year as a professional football player by several measures. You think it might have something to do with that historically bad defense in front of him?

So, sadly, subtracting him next season probably wouldn't have the dramatic impact you think because we are still very likely to have a pretty bad defense overall.

That's just gonna take some time to remedy. Hence the youth movement with the defensive FA signings. This isn't putting a fresh coat of paint on a dump like Rhule and Fitterer did over and over. This is a long term concerted effort to get younger and slowly put together an actual "core."

Prior to the Horn deal, that "core" was literally just Derrick Brown.

Sure you can say all those things but what is your solution? What would you have done?

[jayboogieman]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Based on what exactly?

This is sort of the crux of one of the issues. Even when he has played, he hasn't been an elite CB. A very good one, yes but he hasn't posted much in the way of consistently elite play or numbers or metrics or anything. 

Don't get it twisted, the ability is absolutely there but we are paying him for future elite play, not past elite pay. That's a gamble.

Because the Panthers have mostly had below average or bad CB play, anytime the team has someone out there that is average to above average, the fanbase highly overrates them.

[CRA]

13 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

True. So you can say that he is not worth the money because he has missed a bunch of games - and thats a fair argument. But you can also say that when he is available he is 'one of' the best CB's in the league. 

But now you need to value that. I doubt that he takes a deal worth less then he did (obviously) so then you need to determine is the draft pick we are going to get back for him worth it. 

So you can do what we did, or you can trade the player, thereby making the defence worse, but you have most cap space sitting there. 

So on sundays when we are getting blown out, you can still feel good that we have a lot of cap space. 

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/jaycee-horn/

hard to really make any type of argument for him being a top corner

he is good. not great. 

[kungfoodude]

3 minutes ago, CanadianCat said:

I get that my example was not exhaustive of all the reasons, but it also is that simple (generally). Which is why some teams pay players years before the get to FA to save some money and bet that the player continues to develop. 

And I understand your point about Horn, but I dont think we are in a position to allow players of his caliber to leave. We had no succession plan for him. Had we let him go and Mike Jackson was our #1 corner on the team I might throw up.

So we need to over pay to get some stability - and hope the injuries are behind us. 

I disagree about not being in a position to let him walk simply because we are still in the building process. This is probably at least two more offseasons from being close to that. Pivoting can happen via trade, free agency or draft(preferable). Moving him definitely wouldn't make us better, I think we all understand that. But maybe a future replacement is as good or better. 

I think we likely are just having to overpay because we are a poverty franchise. I am sure it's probably at the root of a lot of the contracts that seemed above market we had to do this offseason. 

Nothing new. The Browns, Bengals, Lions and all the historic cellar dwellers have had to deal with it. But, it does often backfire.

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, jayboogieman said:

He showed up in a contract year when he hasn't before. I'm sure getting paid won't be the lure to playing as much as is hoped. He's going to go back to doing what he's done his whole career.

I've seen it go both ways. And that observation doesn't help a bit at this point, does it?

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't think you will see a CB eclipse that until maybe next offseason. I don't believe there are any imminent deals for guys on rookie deals. The FA market does not have anyone that should be getting anywhere near that.

And yet, I bet someone will beat it this season. It's just the nature of the beast, especially with that contract coming so early in the off-season, and everything yet to go. Some really good CB out there will want a re-work of his deal to make him the highest paid and point to Horn's contract.

Heck, by this time next year, we may see him on the list at 5 or 6 for best paid for position and think we've got a bargain. Or we'll be saying Morgan was gonna Hurney all along.

[kungfoodude]

1 minute ago, CanadianCat said:

Sure you can say all those things but what is your solution? What would you have done?

I probably would have gotten an idea about what the ask was going to be far before free agency, if we were too far apart, check around the league to see what I could get for him, reach out to agents of high caliber free agent CB's and really try to figure out if there was a chance of taking a replacement in the draft. Then take all those variables and weigh out the options.

And, maybe Morgan did all of the above. Maybe at the end of the day we weren't going to get much in a trade and the options in free agency/draft just weren't what we wanted. 

Very possible. BUT......we did also have tag options available, so that also takes away from the notion that we actively wanted to do anything other than make him the highest paid DB in NFL history.

6 minutes ago, jayboogieman said:

Because the Panthers have mostly had below average or bad CB play, anytime the team has someone out there that is average to above average, the fanbase highly overrates them.

Yep. Almost always. 

 

[jayboogieman]

1 minute ago, Khyber53 said:

I've seen it go both ways. And that observation doesn't help a bit at this point, does it?

I can't recall seeing any player in any sport that blew up in a contract year keep up the production after getting paid.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

And yet, I bet someone will beat it this season. It's just the nature of the beast, especially with that contract coming so early in the off-season, and everything yet to go. Some really good CB out there will want a re-work of his deal to make him the highest paid and point to Horn's contract.

Heck, by this time next year, we may see him on the list at 5 or 6 for best paid for position and think we've got a bargain. Or we'll be saying Morgan was gonna Hurney all along.

I will take that bet. Most of the mega deals are already inked and the CB market is picked over.

Unless you think someone is going to extend a rookie with 2 or 3 years in the NFL. That would be quite unusual.

[kungfoodude]

2 minutes ago, jayboogieman said:

I can't recall seeing any player in any sport that blew up in a contract year keep up the production after getting paid.

I don't think that is a great comparison because if anything, Horn was the least impressive he has been in his career. 

He was just far more available, which is ultimately what we wanted anyway. 

Also he really does not strike me as a guy simply after a big payday. Almost everything about him from moment one here has been about his amazing work ethic and drive to be great.

If Morgan wants dawgs, Horn is a dawg to the nth degree. 

He is just a dawg with hip dysplasia.

[jayboogieman]

3 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I don't think that is a great comparison because if anything, Horn was the least impressive he has been in his career. 

He was just far more available, which is ultimately what we wanted anyway. 

Also he really does not strike me as a guy simply after a big payday. Almost everything about him from moment one here has been about his amazing work ethic and drive to be great.

If Morgan wants dawgs, Horn is a dawg to the nth degree. 

He is just a dawg with hip dysplasia.

In Horn's case, replace production with availability, and the point still stands.

[BullCityP]

3 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, the Horn deal is bananas. He is genuinely not a top 10 player at his position, even when healthy. They are paying him for future performance and, TBH, I don't see it going well.

Let's hope we are all wrong and he uses it as motivation to be the best.

Moehrig is an interesting one. He is really going to have to play well to justify that, IMO.

Not top 10?? Honestly how do some of ya'll even talk sports man smh