ESPN: Panthers have "worst group of D-tackles in the league"...

[monstercat]

Just for giggles, I looked up the last 4 games for Hollis Thomas too...http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/3769

He had 10 tackles and 0 sacks, compared to 17 and 1 for Leonard.

So Louis Leonard's stats for his last 4 games were better than what Kemo, Lewis, or Thomas accumulated in their last 4, and we all know that Leonard didn't even finish his last game. That's pretty damned good for a no name DT who can't play. In fact, if the Panthers would have drafted a DT in the first round last year, and he put up those kinds of numbers in his first 4 games, we would have been comparing him to a young Kris Jenkins.

[Ohio]

Here you go. In Leonard's last 4 NFL games, he had 17 tackles and a sack, and the sack came as a Panther. Those are not terrible numbers at all.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/8690

He just needs to keep working hard and, hopefully, stay healthy, and he will be fine.

For the sake of comparison, here are Kemo's stats for his last 4 games...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6163

I know stats aren't everything, but if you're gonna claim that Leonard will be the worst in the league, you should have something to back it up other than the fact that he's not as famous as the guy he is replacing. Kemo wasn't a starter until about 3 years into his career either, and I doubt there were many here who even knew who he was before he became a Panther.

You're comparing Louis Leonards last 4 games that span over 2 years. Kemo's last 4 games, where he was playing hurt, was the last 4 games of the 08 season by itself, not 2 years. Also add in the fact that, Leonards last 2 games were the very first 2 of the season, when teams aren't worn down, unlike Kemo's last 4 games.

[Baschski]

You're comparing Louis Leonards last 4 games that span over 2 years. Kemo's last 4 games, where he was playing hurt, was the last 4 games of the 08 season by itself, not 2 years. Also add in the fact that, Leonards last 2 games were the very first 2 of the season, when teams aren't worn down, unlike Kemo's last 4 games.

So teams are worn down in the last 2 games of the season but Kemo isn't?

[jarhead]

Our defense will revolve around the nose tackle spot again this year. If Louis can come in and do a solid job of stuffing things up and allowing the DEs to come around the edge instead of pinching toward the middle to avoid big runs up the gut, then we will actually be improved at the DT over last year. We were very vulnerable to outside runs last year as it seems the emphasis of the defense was to stop big runs up the middle rather than contain the edges and route things back to the middle. It meant that the ends didn't hold the edge and teams could run around the tackles with little problem. Problem was that we did neither very well.

Truth is that 32nd is close to where we were last year against the run. Football outsiders ranks us 27th last year. Our high adjusted yards average and lower open field ranking (13th) indicates that runners broke through the line but our linebackers and secondary were pretty good at catching them and saving touchdowns. We were middle of the pack (14th) in power running (third or fourth and less than 2) but near the bottom 27th in stuffs(zero or negative plays) and 28th in second level success which is stopping runners between 5 and 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. THis suggests that our linebackers either weren't good in shutting off runs or they were more likely inconsistent plugging holes fairly well but when they had bad fits it would lead to the opponent running for 5 or 10 yards.

The line pass rush was ranked 13th last year.

How will we be this year? I predict no worse in run defense than last year, likely better. Honestly we got nowhere to go but up. But I expect our pass rush to be less effective. On the other hand I do think we will go to a mix of cover 2 zone and cover 1 zone/man under (please more man under) which could give more time for the defensive guys to get there and actually result in some coverage sacks. It has been a long tims since we saw that routinely here. It is very interestingly to me that for years our mantra was that a safety could be found anywhere in the draft and you didn't use a high pick on one. Now we find that we have drafted both Godfrey and Martin pretty high and are stacking our team with corners and safeties with ball skills.

This team may actually resemble some of the Tampa Bay Bucs defensive teams. Not a bunch of defensive line stars, good linebackers and secondary who work better as a team than their individual skills would suggest. At least that is what I hope for. Because the alternative is ugly indeed.

Very good observation.The stats you provided mirrored my observations.

[SnarkAttack]

Maybe Irvin will step up this year....not much mention of him but he was a force at Georgia, from what I hear. Haven't heard one thing about him since he went on IR last year.....which is probably not good.....

[CRA]

I honestly don't even worry that much about stopping the run anymore. Stop the pass, keep the points down, and stop the run when it really matters, such as 3rd or 4th and short, or when you are behind late in the game, and you should be OK nowadays. The 09 Panthers are living proof that an offense can't succeed anymore with the running game alone, even if they have a top 10 scoring defense.

The 09 Panthers are proof you can't win with a turnover machine at QB if running the ball is what you do. Once Jake left, 2009 was all about running the ball and winning. We had a RB go over 100 against the Vikes which is something you don't see, had a back for for 200+ in a game etc.

[panthers55]

If we wanted a big fat guy we should have just signed Ted Washington. He was a better space eater than Kemo ever was even at his old age. Kemo was signed to be a disruptive NT, most people were expecting him to break out since he no longer was going to be in the 3-4. He turned out just being average.

If people were expecting him to be disruptive then they either thought he would be undertackle or thought we were running a true 4-3 1-gap attacking style which we didn't. Kemo's role in a 3-4 was to clog the middle and take up 2 blockers. In our 4-3 under/over, his job was to clog up the middle and take on 2 blockers. So his role on our team was essentially the same as it was when he played a 3-4. So to assume that he would be disruptive in our scheme was wishful thinking. But the coaches got exactly was they wanted from him. If it weren't for injury and money, he would still be here.

[Ohio]

So teams are worn down in the last 2 games of the season but Kemo isn't?

You missed the whole thing. Of course he was worn down, he played the final 3-4 games hurt. You must not remember that early in the year, kemo and lewis helped keep Adrian Peterson under 100 yards

[pantherclaw]

Was going to stay out of this connversation.

But the ignorance is to much to ignore.

Kemo has, and always will be a space eater. That was his role with the ravens, and it was his role here when he was signed to starter money.

Keep thinking otherwise if you want, but don't share that ignorance with the rest of the board.

[The Don]

all of you guys seem to be a little misguided by all the talent grading, whether Kemo and Lewis are better than what we have, or what have you... but the real thing most of you are ignoring is the type of defense we now have. before, our defense was all about stopping the run, then the pass... that was Trgo, old school defense... which is what Kemo and Lewis were semi-perfect for. but now, it's a Tampa 2, Ron Meeks, new school defense... where they stop the pass then the run. i feel like i'm the only one who has realized what our team is doing. they're gearing up to stop the pass, which calls for more athletic (but physical at the same time) and faster defensive tackles. they aren't just trying to eat up space like Kemo, they're gonna be gettin' after it. the biggest thing that i noticed about our team, as a whole, that's going to be different from last year is speed. i think Hurney and Fox realized how much faster other teams were in the playoffs and decided to drop a little strength for agility and speed.

PS: I can't wait for the preseason to start.

[monstercat]

You're comparing Louis Leonards last 4 games that span over 2 years. Kemo's last 4 games, where he was playing hurt, was the last 4 games of the 08 season by itself, not 2 years. Also add in the fact that, Leonards last 2 games were the very first 2 of the season, when teams aren't worn down, unlike Kemo's last 4 games.

Actually, the fact that Leonard put up those numbers with two different teams and in two different defenses, makes is even more impressive to me.

Think about it, 08 was essentially his rookie season and he was playing in a 3-4 in Cleveland, then the Panthers didn't trade for him until Sept. 1st, so he had about 10 days to learn Meeks' system before he played his first game here. So, while he was still learning this defense on the fly, he had 6 tackles and a sack in less than two games. There is just no way you can poo poo that.

As far as Kemo goes, I liked the guy and I defended him on this board many times, but he was terrible against the pass. The only sack he ever got here, was in a pre season game against the Jaguars, and the only reason he got that one, was because Bryon Leftwitch had a bad wheel so he just stood there and let it happen.

[monstercat]

You missed the whole thing. Of course he was worn down, he played the final 3-4 games hurt. You must not remember that early in the year, kemo and lewis helped keep Adrian Peterson under 100 yards

Pretty much everybody is hurting late in the year, so you can't say that Kemo was at any kind of disadvantage if he was well enough to be playing.

By all means though, go and pick out any 4 game stretch that Kemo has ever had and I doubt it will look much different than his last 4. And I'm not saying that Kemo was a bad player at all, and I really didn't expect him to rack up a lot of tackles. What I am saying, is that Leonard is an up an coming player who, contrary to popular belief, actually has done something in the NFL. And so has Tank Tyler...he had 41 tackles in the one season where he started, and he is in kind of the same boat as Leonard, because he was drafted to play in a 4-3, but the team switched to a 3-4, so he didn't fit in anymore.

[panthers55]

all of you guys seem to be a little misguided by all the talent grading, whether Kemo and Lewis are better than what we have, or what have you... but the real thing most of you are ignoring is the type of defense we now have. before, our defense was all about stopping the run, then the pass... that was Trgo, old school defense... which is what Kemo and Lewis were semi-perfect for. but now, it's a Tampa 2, Ron Meeks, new school defense... where they stop the pass then the run. i feel like i'm the only one who has realized what our team is doing. they're gearing up to stop the pass, which calls for more athletic (but physical at the same time) and faster defensive tackles. they aren't just trying to eat up space like Kemo, they're gonna be gettin' after it. the biggest thing that i noticed about our team, as a whole, that's going to be different from last year is speed. i think Hurney and Fox realized how much faster other teams were in the playoffs and decided to drop a little strength for agility and speed.

PS: I can't wait for the preseason to start.

Actually you seem to be the guy who is midguided. The Tampa 2 is a coverage shell not a defensive scheme like the 4-3 or 3-4. Meeks' Tampa 2 is very similar to the cover 2 and cover 3 ran by Trgo in his stint here. Yes a Tampa 2 or cover 2 typically are run with the 4-3 but there is no reason you couldn't run a Tampa 2 with a 3-4.

You are correct that Meeks did bring a few things to the table primarily an emphasis on discipline and good technique and running to the ball which requires good team speed. There is no question that we have actually drafted a few safeties and paid more attention to the secondary although guys like Harris and Minter were crucial to our success under Trgo.

But that is a far cry from changing from stopping the run to stopping the pass. What we are doing is trying to have a balanced defense which is good against the pass and the run. So far we have improved our pass defense but our run defense has suffered. But that hasn't been a planned thing so much as a result of injury.

Fox likes a 4-3 under/over and Meeks is more of straight up 4-3 guy. As long as Louis can plug the middle we are likely to stay in the same scheme regardless of whether we use a Tampa 2/cover 2 or cover 1 rover. The 4-3 under/over allows us to be good against the run as well as the pass.

As for faster more athletic tackles, I would say we had that more under Trgo than Meeks. Jenkins was the perfect combination of size, speed and athleticism. Buckner and Jenkins were better faster and more athletic than Louis and Tyler for example.

If you are comparing our current tackles to last year's tackles then you are comparing apples to oranges and then apples to apples. First of all Kemo didn't play and Lewis is no longer here but was every bit as good or better than Tyler is at this point. So your premise must be that Louis is faster and more athletic than Hollis Thomas who was a backup and is 37 years old. Otherwise Louis is the same Louis that started 2 games for us and would have been the starter if he didn't get hurt. We aren't upgrading from last year at DT just using the same guys.

[monstercat]

FTR, there is no reason why a "space eater" can't make a lot of tackles either. Kris Jenkins had 50 tackles from his NT position in the one full season he played with the Jets, which is more than he ever got as a Panther. And he is probably fatter now than he ever was, and takes on double teams routinely.