Position Breakdown against the Falcons.

[Cargojon]

Hey, just for kicks let's take a look at the safeties.

http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=CB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Darren Sharper ranked #12

Roman Harper ranked #24

Charles Godfrey ranked #35

Chris Harris #50 (last year pre-trade)

Again, it's been fun, as you say, "pwning" you.

[Cap'n]

If you'd like to include safties into the equation, I'll take 2 pro-bowlers in Sharper and Harper over any safety tandem in the division. Secondary = cornerbacks and safeties. Anything else you'd like to cover while you're having your ass handed to you?

Clearly your literacy skills are severely lacking. So heres P55's thread dumbed down for you.

Passing Yards allowed per game:

Panthers: 191

Saints: 235

Points Allowed:

Panthers: 19

Saints: 21

Passing TD's Allowed:

Panthers: 14

Saints: 15

Interceptions:

Panthers: 22

Saints: 26

BIG PLAYS:

Pass Plays Allowed Over 20 yards:

Panthers: 37

Saints: 48

Pass Plays Allowed Over 40 Yards:

Panthers: 6

Saints: 11

Longest Play Allowed:

Panthers: 63 yards

Saints: 71 Yard TD

TOTAL PASS DEFENSIVE RANK::

Panthers: 4

Saints: 26

Good thing you got those 2 pro-bowlers :wink:

/debate

[Cargojon]

Actually, your literary skills are severely lacking. Panty55 said "You can talk about the secondary all day but they were 26th in the league. Don't know how you can make a case they weren't one of the worse in the league not one of the best"

We're talking about the secondary, not the pass defense. I provided objective neutral data that proved that each member of the Saints secondary was better, man by man, than each member of the Panther's secondary.

Pass defense is more than just the secondary. Look at the Giants in their beating of the Patriots in XLII. Their pass defense was predicated on their pass rush, not their secondary. That's why if you're debating who has a better secondary, which was the original argument (actually my original statement was regarding CB's, but I digress), you have to look at the members of the secondary themselves, not the overall pass defense who consists of the D-Line, Linebackers, and the secondary.

[Cap'n]

Actually, your literary skills are severely lacking. Panty55 said "You can talk about the secondary all day but they were 26th in the league. Don't know how you can make a case they weren't one of the worse in the league not one of the best"

We're talking about the secondary, not the pass defense. I provided objective neutral data that proved that each member of the Saints secondary was better, man by man, than each member of the Panther's secondary.

Pass defense is more than just the secondary. Look at the Giants in their beating of the Patriots in XLII. Their pass defense was predicated on their pass rush, not their secondary. That's why if you're debating who has a better secondary, which was the original argument (actually my original statement was regarding CB's, but I digress), you have to look at the members of the secondary themselves, not the overall pass defense who consists of the D-Line, Linebackers, and the secondary.

Your "objective neutral data" was posting what some random website ranked players individually? While I just posted every major pass defensive stat (all but one in which we beat you). :rofl:

oh and by the way, this comes from the F.A.Q. section of your "Bible" you are judging everything by:

My firm belief is that we are between 98-100% accurate in terms of statistics and Player Participation 80-90% accurate in terms of grading. However there are exceptions. Clearly we're not lucky enough to have the game film the teams use and hence anything to do with the Secondary, Receivers downfield and coverage is limited at best. I'd love to do some work on which receivers were open on which play against which coverages but for the moment that's a long way off .

:smilielol5:

[Cargojon]

Your "objective neutral data" was posting what some random website ranked players individually? While I just posted every major pass defensive stat (all but one in which we beat you). :rofl:

oh and by the way, this comes from the F.A.Q. section of your "Bible" you are judging everything by:

:smilielol5:

So when you lose your argument, you attack the credibility of the source....nice. Find me an unbiased source that ranks the players of the Saints secondary lower than those on the Panthers and we'll discuss.

Again, for the short-bus riders - all your stats were pass defense statistics, not secondary. There's a lot of more to the pass defense then just the secondary.

Until then, enjoy 3rd place.

[Cargojon]

Here, perhaps you'll like this one better.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/DB?tag=pageRow;pageContainer

CBS Sports has to carry a little more clout for you, right? The lowest ranked player in the Saints secondary is #40 Roman Harper (they have all DB's grouped together.)

Sharper is #2, Porter #26, Greer #38, Harper #40.

There is only ONE Carolina in the top 50...Richard Marshall at #36. No other Carolina Panther is ranked in the top 50 defensive backs. Clearly the Saints secondary is superior to the Panthers. Again.

I think we're done here.

[Cap'n]

Player rankings < What actually happened

LMAO nice debate. you brought up some nice stats..... (rolls eyes)

:seeya:

[Mr ocho nueve]

Panthers pass defense is way better than Saints by a long shot. Yea you could compare each individual player in the secondary, Saints would win with Sharper being there, seeing that he was there WHOLE pass defense imo. As a UNIT, cb's and safeties, Panthers dominate Saints, even without Chris Harris.

[panthers55]

Here, perhaps you'll like this one better.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/playerrankings/regularseason/DB?tag=pageRow;pageContainer

CBS Sports has to carry a little more clout for you, right? The lowest ranked player in the Saints secondary is #40 Roman Harper (they have all DB's grouped together.)

Sharper is #2, Porter #26, Greer #38, Harper #40.

There is only ONE Carolina in the top 50...Richard Marshall at #36. No other Carolina Panther is ranked in the top 50 defensive backs. Clearly the Saints secondary is superior to the Panthers. Again.

I think we're done here.

So were they your starters or all the guys who played in the secondary? You already admitted the starters were out for a while. Remember the secondary was a compilation of all the guys who played. So once again your argument is only partially true and only accounts for the facts which favors your point of view. I don't see how it can be so hard for you. If all of your players had better stats and were better than ours, then how do you explain that they played poorer as a group? And isn't the point of football how the secondary as a unit performs not how well the individual performs. We have talked about the differences in coverage and scheme which as a zone doesn't favor any one player getting plenty of fantasy points but allows them to function effectively as a unit. And that ultimately is the point. Ask any intelligent fans whether they would prefer a secondary that doesn't put up great stats individually but performs at a higher level as a group or would they prefer a bunch of guys who individually look great but can't stay on the field and as a unit performs worse and I think they would universally prefer the group effort. And if you asked which one is better, they would say that the group results trumps individual results.

Other than wanting to win the argument and bending things to your point of view, do you seriously not understand that as a team sport, unit results trump individual stats? And if so, why keep bringing up these stats which only apply in fantasy football.

[Cargojon]

So were they your starters or all the guys who played in the secondary? You already admitted the starters were out for a while. Remember the secondary was a compilation of all the guys who played. So once again your argument is only partially true and only accounts for the facts which favors your point of view. I don't see how it can be so hard for you. If all of your players had better stats and were better than ours, then how do you explain that they played poorer as a group? And isn't the point of football how the secondary as a unit performs not how well the individual performs. We have talked about the differences in coverage and scheme which as a zone doesn't favor any one player getting plenty of fantasy points but allows them to function effectively as a unit. And that ultimately is the point. Ask any intelligent fans whether they would prefer a secondary that doesn't put up great stats individually but performs at a higher level as a group or would they prefer a bunch of guys who individually look great but can't stay on the field and as a unit performs worse and I think they would universally prefer the group effort. And if you asked which one is better, they would say that the group results trumps individual results.

Other than wanting to win the argument and bending things to your point of view, do you seriously not understand that as a team sport, unit results trump individual stats? And if so, why keep bringing up these stats which only apply in fantasy football.

And yet again you seem to not read half of what I post. Pass defense as a whole, which is the stats that you've provided, also take into account the LB corp and the D Line. I think as a whole you won't get an argument from me that the Panthers LB corps as a whole is/was better than the Saints in 2009. I don't know enough about your D-Line other than Peppers in 2009 to make a judgment vs. the Saints, but the Saints D-Line other than W. Smith and S. Elllis, was at best an average unit.

So, it's not hard to see how the Panther's better stats in many of the team passing defense categories would be possible despite having an inferior secondary to the Saints. Again the 2007 Giants are a great example of this, shutting down Brady and the record setting Pats passing offense despite having a very average group in the secondary.

[Fiz]

Hey how many games in the last two years have gamble/Marshall missed vs Greer/porter cause uh that's important.

[House]

Hey how many games in the last two years have gamble/Marshall missed vs Greer/porter cause uh that's important.

Who in the hell are Greer and Porter?

[seandroog]

Hi, So i'm a member of SR.com, new to this forum. I'm not trying to troll, just wanna discuss some NFC south. After all, I think that we can all agree we're in one of the better divisions in football right? Before I start I just wanna say that one of my best friends is a Panther fan, so using the "I'm not racist, I have friends that are..." logic here I go:

So yes, we had issues all around on defense. Mostly in the running game. Injuries made our starting DT position a revolving door and OLB has always been a weekness for us since ex panther Sam Mills led the best LB corp of all time, the dome patrol. But secondary is not a problem on our team. Jabari greer is quickly becoming a top 5 corner and porter isn't nearly the shutdown but he makes big plays (against favre and manning). When those two were hurt Sharper's age was exposed; he's a ball hawker, but he no longer has the quickness to cover on his own.

When Greer and Porter were hurt we had Gay (a career backup witht he patriots and us with about a million rings lol), Malcom Jenkins (a very talented but slow futer FS) and were pulling Mike Mckenzie and Chris Mcallister from the street (yeah they'er not with a team now).

Jabari Greer will become a household name soon. He was the guy who stopped TO from having a catch and ending his insane streak. He's a true shut down corner.

But if we need to compare stats, Jabari Greer. only 46.9% of the times Jabari greer was thrown at in coverage was that pass caught last year. That's 4th in the entire NFL (revis was first of course). The overall QB rating against him was 52.3 which is 6th in the nfl. He only allowed 1 TD all year when he was in coverage.

Tracy porter allowed no TD's when he was in coverage. he's also in the top 10 of opponent QB rating. He's around 23rd of percentage caught against him. that's pretty good numbers for a guy who is getting more balls thrown his side with Greer being a shutdown corner.

Link: http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=CB&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

The problem is beyond that. Gay does an admirable job but nothign special. Malcom Jenkins is a FS. but we did draft a CB and with how we blitz he will be important. I truly believe we have one of the better CB tandems in football.

So off topic i'm sure but just off the top of my head (admittedly with no stats to backup) I would have to say about the saints players against Carolina:

QB - Saints (i think he's the best in the NFL)

RB - Carolina (I love pierre but you guys use RB much better than we do)

WR - Saints (I just think we're incredibly deep)

TE - Saints (shockey needs to stay off the cough medicine though)

FB - Saints (and i say this mostly because Heath evens is a passing threat. I'm not even sure if you guys still have hoover, he was a great blocker)

T - our RT went to the probowl and LT also went to the probowl (shhhh he's overrated but will you give us a first round pick for him?) so I'm not gonna guess here.

G - Saints Jhari evans is probably the best guard in football, and he's young

C - Panthers - idk who you guys have but trust me he's better

DL - With you guys losing peppers there's question marks and we only upgraded by getting rid of Charles Grant and getting alex brown so i would have to go sainst (yes homer i know)

LB - Yeah vilma is great in coverage but I have to go carolina here

S - Not sure who you guys have but sharper will probably age fast and Jenkins is not ready yet so won't comment.

CB - Saints, above reasons

K - I want to go push here, but leaning panthers. Hartley made huge kicks and was great last year but I feel like he's too young and kickers can go off the handle. Kasay has made me cry so many times

P - Push - Morestead is playing great on kickoffs also

Sorry for the lengthy post but wanted to get off on the right foot. Hopefully we can discuss with a level head. But if you guys think I'm really trolling feel free to delete me.

[Cargojon]

Who in the hell are Greer and Porter?

The two best CB's in the division.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/12272/ranking-the-nfc-south-cornerbacks