Younger and Faster or ready for lockout?

[panthers55]

I don't believe it's preparing for the lockout quite as much as it is taking the opportunity to dump toxic contracts (not in all cases) in preparation for the players we will need to resign shortly... The preparation for a lockout is simply a byproduct of the moves... That's simply my opinion... Many people misconstrue the Panthers refusal to pursue high profile, high priced free agents as being cheap... I disagree, and instead think it is simply the philosophy of the team... Let's face it, we are continually at or over the alotted cap, and are never 50 million under like some teams are... That ain't cheap... That's smart business...

You misconstrue cap with payroll which aren't the same at all. Smart GMs can manage the cap and still be decent in payroll. We have often been at tops in cap but still in the middle in payroll. That suggests we don't manage the cap as well as others, not that we spend the same money.

For example:

2009 cap- 127 million- actual payroll - 112 million (11th)

2008 cap- 116 milion- actual payroll - 112 million (17th)

2007 cap- 109 million- actual payroll- 93 million (27th)

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007

[NanceUSMC]

You misconstrue cap with payroll which aren't close in meaning. Smart GMs can manage the cap and still be decent in payroll. We have often been at tops in cap but still in the middle in payroll. That suggests we don't manage the cap as well as others, not that we spend the same money.

For example:

2009 cap- 127 million- actual payroll - 112 million (11th)

2008 cap- 116 milion- actual payroll - 112 million (17th)

2007 cap- 109 million- actual payroll- 93 million (27th)

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2007

You think they've done a poor job, and are upset they raised prices...

I think they've done a fine job, and the price increase doesn't bother me in the least...

I no longer live local, and no longer have the ability to attend games... But I would encourage you that if you are this unhappy with the product on the field, and the way the business is run, to stop supporting the effort... Sell your PSLs and don't bother with the headache that it's causing you... That's not me being a smart-ass... I'm sincerely saying that if you do not agree, to the point of being this upset over the decision, then don't financially support the orgainzation...

The numbers you mention above don't quite tell the entire story... Charlotte isn't a Dallas, Washington or Chicago market... Their overall budget will be more handcuffed than many of the teams in the league... I don't have a problem with them operating in the range those numbers list, provided they are able to build through the draft, retain the majority of their drafted talent, be competitive consistently, and put a strong product on the field... I don't mind the team management and ownership doing what they have to do to succeed... They aren't a major television market... They don't lead the league in jersey or apparrel sales... To me, they choose to spend their available money wisely, in keeping home-grown talent...

I've already stated that I do not see the 'youth movement' as something that should destroy the season or the franchise... I just don't see it... It's perfectly understandable that others will not view the situation the same as I do... You don't... And if you feel that strongly, I would urge you to simply stop supporting the organization until they conduct business in a manner that you feel is fitting of your financial support...

[panthers55]

You think they've done a poor job, and are upset they raised prices...

I think they've done a fine job, and the price increase doesn't bother me in the least...

I no longer live local, and no longer have the ability to attend games... But I would encourage you that if you are this unhappy with the product on the field, and the way the business is run, to stop supporting the effort... Sell your PSLs and don't bother with the headache that it's causing you... That's not me being a smart-ass... I'm sincerely saying that if you do not agree, to the point of being this upset over the decision, then don't financially support the orgainzation...

The numbers you mention above don't quite tell the entire story... Charlotte isn't a Dallas, Washington or Chicago market... Their overall budget will be more handcuffed than many of the teams in the league... I don't have a problem with them operating in the range those numbers list, provided they are able to build through the draft, retain the majority of their drafted talent, be competitive consistently, and put a strong product on the field... I don't mind the team management and ownership doing what they have to do to succeed... They aren't a major television market... They don't lead the league in jersey or apparrel sales... To me, they choose to spend their available money wisely, in keeping home-grown talent...

I've already stated that I do not see the 'youth movement' as something that should destroy the season or the franchise... I just don't see it... It's perfectly understandable that others will not view the situation the same as I do... You don't... And if you feel that strongly, I would urge you to simply stop supporting the organization until they conduct business in a manner that you feel is fitting of your financial support...

So if you don't buy tickets you don't have a dime in it so your opinion of tickets prices is irrelevant. Just like my opinion of apartment prices in New York City is just as irrelevant.

As for me selling my PSLs and moving on, I could surely do that but frankly I have been here for a lot worse and will hopefully be here for a lot better. And honestly I don't agree with what the president does much of the time, but it doesn't mean I am going to move to another country or

continent. I don't like how the government is run either, should I stop paying taxes and supporting them financially. That kind of advice is trite and simplistic.

The point you made about the budget was that we spend the cap every year as if we also spend the same payroll. When that was dispelled as wrong now you go on a red herring about cost of living and market. The reality is that we are not a big spender in payroll and we don't shell out what other teams do. By the way, want to know which of the teams in the NFC South spends the most payroll each of the past several years. Yeah the New Orleans Saints. Do you think they are a bigger market team than we are? Go look up TV market, city size or anything you want. The answer is of course no. So while there is some correlation between size of market and spending, it doesn't account for the reasons we spend less than our division rival, for example.

The youth movement isn't being done for football reasons but for payroll reasons, Fox as much confirmed it. No one is saying it will destroy the franchise. Using that kind of extreme language is your poor attempt to try and characterize my position as extreme as well which it isn't. I am simply saying that the number of cuts were unwarranted, expecting everyone to step up as well as their backups (almost 20 guys) at the same time is unlikely, and the result will be a problem particularly on the defensive side. I don't agree with Richardson's gameplan but acknowledge it is his team and he can do as he wishes. I feel the same way about my companies and doing as I see fit.

I don't see anywhere that I am in pain, ready to throw the team away or giving up. I am just evaluating the data at hand and making what I believe at the present are accurate assessment. Obviously as the season unfolds and more data is available, I may change my mind if the coaches can do more with less.

Most of us gave up the "love it or leave it" slogans in the 60s. Obviously some like you still feel that way.

[NanceUSMC]

So if you don't buy tickets you don't have a dime in it so your opinion of tickets prices is irrelevant. Just like my opinion of apartment prices in New York City is just as irrelevant.

As for me selling my PSLs and moving on, I could surely do that but frankly I have been here for a lot worse and will hopefully be here for a lot better. And honestly I don't agree with what the president does much of the time, but it doesn't mean I am going to move to another country or

continent. I don't like how the government is run either, should I stop paying taxes and supporting them financially. That kind of advice is trite and simplistic.

The point you made about the budget was that we spend the cap every year as if we also spend the same payroll. When that was dispelled as wrong now you go on a red herring about cost of living and market. The reality is that we are not a big spender in payroll and we don't shell out what other teams do. By the way, want to know which of the teams in the NFC South spends the most payroll each of the past several years. Yeah the New Orleans Saints. Do you think they are a bigger market team than we are? Go look up TV market, city size or anything you want. The answer is of course no. So while there is some correlation between size of market and spending, it doesn't account for the reasons we spend less than our division rival, for example.

The youth movement isn't being done for football reasons but for payroll reasons, Fox as much confirmed it. No one is saying it will destroy the franchise. Using that kind of extreme language is your poor attempt to try and characterize my position as extreme as well which it isn't. I am simply saying that the number of cuts were unwarranted, expecting everyone to step up as well as their backups (almost 20 guys) at the same time is unlikely, and the result will be a problem particularly on the defensive side. I don't agree with Richardson's gameplan but acknowledge it is his team and he can do as he wishes. I feel the same way about my companies and doing as I see fit.

I don't see anywhere that I am in pain, ready to throw the team away or giving up. I am just evaluating the data at hand and making what I believe at the present are accurate assessment. Obviously as the season unfolds and more data is available, I may change my mind if the coaches can do more with less.

Most of us gave up the "love it or leave it" slogans in the 60s. Obviously some like you still feel that way.

Uh oh, looks like I offended someone..... I wasn't in any way attempting to be trite, simplistic or offensive... That wasn't my intention, sorry you took it that way...

As for my opinion on ticket prices, I stated I no longer purchase tickets, not that I have never purchased them regularly... The price hikes in the past didn't bother me, and this wouldn't/doesn't either... My opinion, and while you may not like it or share it, I'm certainly entitled to it... You are just as entitled to yours...

As for the youth movement being done for financial concerns, Fox confirmed that about Harris... To my knowledge he did no such thing regarding the others... So to your point, I disagree that the entire movement is being done for financial reasons alone... I do believe they are being done with an eye towards signing the likes of Williams, Davis, Beason and Stewart... I suppose the argument could be made that that in itself is the financial concerns the team is anticipating, and are using the uncapped year to eat toxic contracts and bonuses...

As for dispelling anything I've posted, well, again, we can agree to disagree... All I got from you link was that Total Payroll does not equal on field success... Why spend simply for the sake of spending? I don't know if you are in the camp of feeling we need to sign higher priced, higher profile free agents, (or what philosophy you subscribe to for that matter) but that's a position I don't agree with... Again, my opinion...

I was fine seeing Peppers go... I like Delhomme, but I'm fine with him being in Cleveland... I have no problem with Kemo leaving... I hated to lose Lewis, but understand the reason... Same with Hoover... Harris is replaceable, even though I hate to see him go... Point is I think some of the decisions were made because of high dollar contracts, some made because of lack of production and some made due to injury concerns... I do believe that all were made with an eye on the future and the FA's we'll be needing to sign soon... So, looking at it from THAT perspective, I can agree these were primarily financial decisions... I don't, however, believe this is simply a case of finding a way to stick it to the fans... I just don't feel that way... But again, just my opinion...

Anyway, I simply don't feel it's time to set fire to the season and I don't feel we are 'on the fall' as you do... I feel our core is intact, that our philosophy is intact and that given the chance to shine, we may very well just come to find a few success stories among our 'youth movement'... But then again I choose to be an optimist... You choose to be the pessimist... And in the end, I'm sure my opinion means just as much to you, as yours does to me... :smilewinkgrin:

[panthers55]

Uh oh, looks like I offended someone..... I wasn't in any way attempting to be trite, simplistic or offensive... That wasn't my intention, sorry you took it that way...

As for my opinion on ticket prices, I stated I no longer purchase tickets, not that I have never purchased them regularly... The price hikes in the past didn't bother me, and this wouldn't/doesn't either... My opinion, and while you may not like it or share it, I'm certainly entitled to it... You are just as entitled to yours...

As for the youth movement being done for financial concerns, Fox confirmed that about Harris... To my knowledge he did no such thing regarding the others... So to your point, I disagree that the entire movement is being done for financial reasons alone... I do believe they are being done with an eye towards signing the likes of Williams, Davis, Beason and Stewart... I suppose the argument could be made that that in itself is the financial concerns the team is anticipating, and are using the uncapped year to eat toxic contracts and bonuses...

As for dispelling anything I've posted, well, again, we can agree to disagree... All I got from you link was that Total Payroll does not equal on field success... Why spend simply for the sake of spending? I don't know if you are in the camp of feeling we need to sign higher priced, higher profile free agents, (or what philosophy you subscribe to for that matter) but that's a position I don't agree with... Again, my opinion...

I was fine seeing Peppers go... I like Delhomme, but I'm fine with him being in Cleveland... I have no problem with Kemo leaving... I hated to lose Lewis, but understand the reason... Same with Hoover... Harris is replaceable, even though I hate to see him go... Point is I think some of the decisions were made because of high dollar contracts, some made because of lack of production and some made due to injury concerns... I do believe that all were made with an eye on the future and the FA's we'll be needing to sign soon... So, looking at it from THAT perspective, I can agree these were primarily financial decisions... I don't, however, believe this is simply a case of finding a way to stick it to the fans... I just don't feel that way... But again, just my opinion...

Anyway, I simply don't feel it's time to set fire to the season and I don't feel we are 'on the fall' as you do... I feel our core is intact, that our philosophy is intact and that given the chance to shine, we may very well just come to find a few success stories among our 'youth movement'... But then again I choose to be an optimist... You choose to be the pessimist... And in the end, I'm sure my opinion means just as much to you, as yours does to me... :smilewinkgrin:

First of all I am not offended by anything you said. You certainly do have a right to express your opinion on this and any other matter. The fact that I think that a disinterested opinion is less valid or that your remarks are trite or simplistic don't suggest I am offended simply passing along my opinion just as you are.

I understand that you like many feel that the youth movement is a good thing and was football inspired not financially driven. Obviously the spin machine for the Panthers has been rather effective. It is pretty obvious to most anyone who evaluates our abrupt change in strategy over the past 6 months that this is not the old long range plan or we wouldn't have signed Harris to a five year deal for example and then cut him less than 2 years into it when he was still very effective as a SS. We only traded him so we could unload some of his contract instead of take a further hit this year. We hardly got equal value which is why they were thrilled to take advantage of us.

Most of the guys we cut weren't high dollar contracts. Lewis for example wasn't going to get the 9 million option nor was Kemo, that was acknowledged openly. All that did was void the remainder of the contract after this year which was a good thing not bad. We cut both of them for the cost of their contracts for this year not to avoid some bad constructed contract down the road. In fact besides Jake's money which we still owe, we did little to get rid of these supposed badly constructed contracts. And as for production, you could make a case for cutting Johnson and could argue that Kemo was an injury risk although Washington scooped him up pretty quickly. But people who use Hoover as an example apparently forget he appeared in more games than Fiametta did and that concussions are more serious injuries than leg or ankle issues. Again the spin doctors are at work.

Is Richardson sticking it to the fans ? I doubt he thinks like that. He simply found a way to charge more money while spending less. I simply said that Richardson couldn't justify raising prices based on cutting payroll by 20-30 million and that I disagree that the view from row 15 justifies paying more money than the guys who are one row back. The changes were done without imput from fans or without warning that they would splt sections and charge more. I can see how that would constitute sticking it to the guys in rows 1-15.

No one said we were setting the season on fire or anything close. You are the one who wants to use extreme language to justify your position. I am simply pointing out the reality that we haven't signed those core players long term although Willis's contract shows it can be done rather easily. In fact we have signed no one long-term. We haven't signed any free agents of any note, have no coaches under contract beyond this year and frankly have initiated none of this long range plan you speak of. Up to this point we have operated totally in the present even while spinning the fact that this is all for the future. I will believe it when I see it. Others can choose to believe without any evidence, that is called faith and you are free to exercise it. Up until this year I may have agreed but clearly see that taking things on faith right now may not be the best course. So for the present I choose to be like folks from Missouri- the show me state. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I predict these changes are the tip of the iceburg and many more are coming. Lets see who is right this time next year. I honestly hope you are, but fear I will be. You call me the pessimist while you're the optimist while I calll myself the realist and think you are the dupe.

[NanceUSMC]

First of all I am not offended by anything you said. You certainly do have a right to express your opinion on this and any other matter. The fact that I think that a disinterested opinion is less valid or that your remarks are trite or simplistic don't suggest I am offended simply passing along my opinion just as you are.

I understand that you like many feel that the youth movement is a good thing and was football inspired not financially driven. Obviously the spin machine for the Panthers has been rather effective. It is pretty obvious to most anyone who evaluates our abrupt change in strategy over the past 6 months that this is not the old long range plan or we wouldn't have signed Harris to a five year deal for example and then cut him less than 2 years into it when he was still very effective as a SS. We only traded him so we could unload some of his contract instead of take a further hit this year. We hardly got equal value which is why they were thrilled to take advantage of us.

Most of the guys we cut weren't high dollar contracts. Lewis for example wasn't going to get the 9 million option nor was Kemo, that was acknowledged openly. All that did was void the remainder of the contract after this year which was a good thing not bad. We cut both of them for the cost of their contracts for this year not to avoid some bad constructed contract down the road. In fact besides Jake's money which we still owe, we did little to get rid of these supposed badly constructed contracts. And as for production, other than Johnson, who has failed to produce that we cut other than Jake and Kemo who was on IR. Again the spin doctors are at work.

Is Richardson sticking it to the fans ? I doubt he thinks like that. He simply found a way to charge more money while spending less. I simply said that Richardson couldn't justify raising prices based on cutting payroll by 20-30 million and that I disagree that the view from row 15 justifies paying more money than the guys who are one row back. The changes were done without imput from fans or without warning that they would splt sections and charge more. I can see how that would constitute sticking it to the guys in rows 1-15.

No one said we were setting the season on fire or anything close. You are the one who wants to use extreme language to justify your position. I am simply pointing out the reality that we haven't signed those core players long term although Willis's contract shows it can be done rather easily. If fact we signed no one long-term. We haven't signed any free agents of any note, have no coaches under contract beyond this year and frankly have initiated none of this long range plan you speak of. Up to this point we have operated totally in the present even while spinning the fact that this is all for the future. I will believe it when I see it. Others can choose to believe without any evidence, that is called faith and you are free to exercise it. Up until this year I may have agreed but clearly see that taking things on faith right now may not be the best course. So for the present I choose to be like folks from Missouri- the show me state. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. I predict these changes are the tip of the iceburg and many more are coming. Lets see who is right this time next year. I honestly hope you are, but fear I will be. You call me the pessimist while your the optimist while I calll myself the realist and think you are the dupe.

I actually wouldn't personally fret over a new coaching regime... I consider myself a Fox supporter, but also admit I'm sick of some of the lackluster efforts his teams tend to put on the field... That reason alone is the biggest reason I'm not really that unhappy with the release of some of those vets... I've personally been hoping for a new mindset for some time now, so this is something I'm excited to see... And if it works out for Fox, great... If not, I'm ok with bringing someone else in and giving them a shot... I'd be more upset to see Hurney go than I would Fox...

And you're right, these changes certainly could be the tip of the iceberg... We could end up 5-11, locked out, with no coach (or coaching staff), a new GM, ticket prices on the rise again and unable or unwilling to resign our FA's... Just as easily as we could end up 10-6, a Wild Card team, with plenty of room to maneuver under the cap, loads of young talent locked up for years, singing the praises of Fox and Hurney... If it means I've been duped because I think we'll end up closer to the latter, then so be it... I predicted 9-7, and I'll stick by that...

[panthers55]

I actually wouldn't personally fret over a new coaching regime... I consider myself a Fox supporter, but also admit I'm sick of some of the lackluster efforts his teams tend to put on the field... That reason alone is the biggest reason I'm not really that unhappy with the release of some of those vets... I've personally been hoping for a new mindset for some time now, so this is something I'm excited to see... And if it works out for Fox, great... If not, I'm ok with bringing someone else in and giving them a shot... I'd be more upset to see Hurney go than I would Fox...

And you're right, these changes certainly could be the tip of the iceberg... We could end up 5-11, locked out, with no coach (or coaching staff), a new GM, ticket prices on the rise again and unable or unwilling to resign our FA's... Just as easily as we could end up 10-6, a Wild Card team, with plenty of room to maneuver under the cap, loads of young talent locked up for years, singing the praises of Fox and Hurney... If it means I've been duped because I think we'll end up closer to the latter, then so be it... I predicted 9-7, and I'll stick by that...

I know I am likely in the minority right now. Spring is the time to believe in rebirths and every fan is hoping that their team goes 16-0 and makes it to the Superbowl. The draft is done and everyone is hoping that all those rookies will make an instant impact although history shows it rarely happens. And don't assume that I will be hoping for anything less. Trust me I have invested a lot of money into the Panthers this season as I do every year. I attend every home game and tailgate all day which is a big investment in time, energy and money. I will be rooting as hard as anyone just like I do every year. Just because I think we will struggle this year particularly on defense early doesn't mean I won't be hoping they gel early and surpass my expectations. I go into every game expecting to win althought we obviously don't. I will also be at training camp and will follow them closely. Just like I do every year. You might see that as a contradiction but I don't. I might rationally think we are not going to win but that doesn't stop me from rooting for a blowout. One is intellectual and the other is emotional. Football is an emotional game and the word fan is short for fanatic. I will always be crazy for the Panthers even when we are not very good. This discussion is intellectual not emotional which is why although I think we won't be very good I can say I hope I am wrong.

As for the record, it is too soon to tell. By the end of the preseason it will be clear if we are ready particularly on the defense.

[SmootsDaddy89]

[NanceUSMC]

I know I am likely in the minority right now. Spring is the time to believe in rebirths and every fan is hoping that their team goes 16-0 and makes it to the Superbowl. The draft is done and everyone is hoping that all those rookies will make an instant impact although history shows it rarely happens. And don't assume that I will be hoping for anything less. Trust me I have invested a lot of money into the Panthers this season as I do every year. I attend every home game and tailgate all day which is a big investment in time, energy and money. I will be rooting as hard as anyone just like I do every year. Just because I think we will struggle this year particularly on defense early doesn't mean I won't be hoping they gel early and surpass my expectations. I go into every game expecting to win althought we obviously don't. I will also be at training camp and will follow them closely. Just like I do every year. You might see that as a contradiction but I don't. I might rationally think we are not going to win but that doesn't stop me from rooting for a blowout. One is intellectual and the other is emotional. Football is an emotional game and the word fan is short for fanatic. I will always be crazy for the Panthers even when we are not very good. This discussion is intellectual not emotional which is why although I think we won't be very good I can say I hope I am wrong.

As for the record, it is too soon to tell. By the end of the preseason it will be clear if we are ready particularly on the defense.

I can definitely agree with you there... The particular area of concern will be the defense, specifically the DL and the ability to stop the run as well as create a rush... And it won't take a hell of a long time to figure out whether we'll be able to play on both sides of the ball, or whether we're gonna struggle to outscore teams...

And yes, we're both fans, and hope for the same results in the end, even if we do have different outlooks on where we currently stand... Doesn't make me right or you wrong, or anything else... I assure you, if my wife saw my positive outlook that I generally have on the board, she'd wonder who the hell I was, since I'll start my cussing fit about the time the other team gets their second First Down... heh But I only do that if I'm watching on TV... I'm totally diff'rent at the stadium...

Let me ask this, though.. What would you consider a 'successful' season this year? Personally, I'd consider 9-7, and in the discussion for a Wild Card as a successful season, particularly if the players develop and mesh well... However, if we hit 9-7, but had to win 4 of the last 5 games to get there, were never in the playoff picture in the least, and the youngsters couldn't get it together, I'll be on the Brian Billick/Bill Cowher bandwagon...

[panthers55]

I can definitely agree with you there... The particular area of concern will be the defense, specifically the DL and the ability to stop the run as well as create a rush... And it won't take a hell of a long time to figure out whether we'll be able to play on both sides of the ball, or whether we're gonna struggle to outscore teams...

And yes, we're both fans, and hope for the same results in the end, even if we do have different outlooks on where we currently stand... Doesn't make me right or you wrong, or anything else... I assure you, if my wife saw my positive outlook that I generally have on the board, she'd wonder who the hell I was, since I'll start my cussing fit about the time the other team gets their second First Down... heh But I only do that if I'm watching on TV... I'm totally diff'rent at the stadium...

Let me ask this, though.. What would you consider a 'successful' season this year? Personally, I'd consider 9-7, and in the discussion for a Wild Card as a successful season, particularly if the players develop and mesh well... However, if we hit 9-7, but had to win 4 of the last 5 games to get there, were never in the playoff picture in the least, and the youngsters couldn't get it together, I'll be on the Brian Billick/Bill Cowher bandwagon...

I would be fine with 8-8 as long as we went 8-0 at home. Yeah that is my own self interest but nothing pains me more than seeing opposing fans whooping it up and talking crap as they exit the stadium. My personal motto is that I don't care if they talk crap going into the stadium as long as we are doing the talking on the way out. I would think that a winning record would be good for us. I would also love another home playoff game although I highly doubt we could win the division.

As for either Brian Billick or Bill Cowher, I wouldn't want either. If Cowher comes here, Hurney is gone. Hurney likes imput into decisions and Cowher would want total control. As for Billick, he is hardly an upgrade over Fox. He was an offensive coordinator who had lousy offenses as a head coach and without his 4-0 run in the playoffs in 2000 was a combined 1-3 in playoffs the next 7 years with 2 first round exits. I can think of a dozen guys I would like a lot more including 3 on their current staff. But that is just me.