Josh Norris: Panthers-Garrett Wilson trade options

[Aussie Tank]

21 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

You literally haven't said one thing yet to explain your views on Evans being a better prospect.

T-Mac had better stats and has less negatives in his draft profiles when comparing the two, but you still keep saying that.  If anything, they both had the same speed/separation question marks, but T-Mac is universally lauded for having unreal hands while that was a question mark for Evans coming out.

So, please explain then what makes T-Mac a lesser prospect than Evans and you can't say a single thing about Evans long term health to allow him to compile a HOF resume in the NFL as that's a ludicrous argument to use when comparing them as prospects, like you keep claiming Evans was the better prospect.

Alright then Evans was bigger, stronger and im gonna give thier speed a push until the combine. Your college stats Evans did his against better competition near 300 yards in a game against Alabama when they were the No1 seeded side in college. 

And this is where I can't see how you can say TMac has a higher ceiling than Prime Mike Evans YET. Is because we've seen Evans do it and prove the scouting reports wrong and do it against the best in the world. 

Hell you could come out and say Savion Williams could have a better peak season than all of them because he's huge a physical phenomenon with very good contested catch percentages. But the chances of that are slim to fug all 

[tukafan21]

29 minutes ago, Aussie Tank said:

Alright then Evans was bigger, stronger and im gonna give thier speed a push until the combine. Your college stats Evans did his against better competition near 300 yards in a game against Alabama when they were the No1 seeded side in college. 

And this is where I can't see how you can say TMac has a higher ceiling than Prime Mike Evans YET. Is because we've seen Evans do it and prove the scouting reports wrong and do it against the best in the world. 

Hell you could come out and say Savion Williams could have a better peak season than all of them because he's huge a physical phenomenon with very good contested catch percentages. But the chances of that are slim to fug all 

Yes, Evans is bigger and stronger, but T-Mac has better hands and more shiftiness (can't think of the proper term there, but you know what I mean).

Cool, Evans had a huge game against a #1 ranked team, that doesn't mean he did better against better competition (it doesn't mean he didn't either, but one game doesn't make a career or prospect).  Again, T-Mac had solidly better stats in college than Evans had (and that's before even mentioning that Evans had a literal Heisman winner as his QB), so pulling out a single game doesn't mean much (and I'd say the same thing if it was reversed, I don't put much stock into a single game for anyone).

Also, you say you're giving the speed a push because we haven't seen T-Mac's combine time yet.

So how about this from an article from before this season that said T-Mac's top game speed during his first 2 years in school topped out at 21.8 MPH.

Which btw, would have come in at tied for the 7th fastest player speed in the NFL this past season.

And for comparisons sake, from a few initial searches, it looks like Evans' top game speed in his career was 20.6 MPH.

It's like I've said too many times to count.  No, T-Mac doesn't have elite short distance speed, he's 6'5", it would be crazy if he did.  But once he gets into his strides, he's shockingly fast for a player of his size and routinely runs away from defenders after the catch (he was 5th in the Big 12 in YAC this year).  It's right there in his tape if you spend the time to watch all of it and not just his contested catch highlights.

Edited 5 hours ago by tukafan21

[Aussie Tank]

7 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Yes, Evans is bigger and stronger, but T-Mac has better hands and more shiftiness (can't think of the proper term there, but you know what I mean).

Cool, Evans had a huge game against a #1 ranked team, that doesn't mean he did better against better competition (it doesn't mean he didn't either, but one game doesn't make a career or prospect).  Again, T-Mac had solidly better stats in college than Evans had (and that's before even mentioning that Evans had a literal Heisman winner as his QB), so pulling out a single game doesn't mean much (and I'd say the same thing if it was reversed, I don't put much stock into a single game for anyone).

Also, you say you're giving the speed a push because we haven't seen T-Mac's combine time yet.

So how about this from an article from before this season that said T-Mac's top game speed during his first 2 years in school topped out at 21.8 MPH.

Which btw, would have come in at tied for the 7th fastest player speed in the NFL this past season.

And for comparisons sake, from a few initial searches, it looks like Evans' top game speed in his career was 20.6 MPH.

It's like I've said too many times to count.  No, T-Mac doesn't have elite short distance speed, he's 6'5", it would be crazy if he did.  But once he gets into his strides, he's shockingly fast for a player of his size and routinely runs away from defenders after the catch.  It's right there in his tape if you spend the time to watch all of it and not just his contested catch highlights.

All this back and forth is getting tiring. I'm just gonna say this i think your too high too early on the bloke simple as that. And I can't sit here and say that his prime is gonna be better than Evans prime when quality sure fire WRs bust all the time 

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, Aussie Tank said:

All this back and forth is getting tiring. I'm just gonna say this i think your too high too early on the bloke simple as that. And I can't sit here and say that his prime is gonna be better than Evans prime when quality sure fire WRs bust all the time 

Tiring because I keep proving your talking points wrong with stats, actual data, and what the "experts" said about both players at the same point in their football careers?

You're dying on the hill of "Evans prime was as a true elite player" which just by itself, woefully incorrect, T-Mac comparisons aside.  I'm not going to go through every player's seasons since Evans came into the league, but I'd be willing to bet money that Evans' best statistical season wouldn't crack the Top 15, maybe not even the Top 20, of individual WR seasons in that same time frame.

His BEST season was 96 rec, 1,321 yds, 12 TDs... which likely would have only been tied for the 3rd best WR season this year alone with Amon-Ra's 115, 1,263, 12 stat line and behind Chase/Jefferson's 127/103, 1,708/1,533, 17/10 lines.

You're also basically arguing against every player because every player COULD turn out to be a bust, but there is nothing in T-Mac's film or draft profile that suggests he is going to be a bust in general, but even more so when you directly compare him to Evans as a NFL draft prospect as the only knocks you could put on T-Mac is the exact same negatives Evans had.

You keep leaning back on what he's done in the NFL, which is just asinine to use when comparing players as prospects.  It would be like saying Josh Rosen wasn't a better prospect coming out of college than Tom Brady.

If you disregard what either did in the NFL, there isn't a single scout or analyst that ever would say Brady was a better prospect.  And yes, I realize the extreme of that example, but the concept is the same, you can't look at a single thing Evans has done in his NFL career if you're trying to just compare them as prospects coming out of college.

[Aussie Tank]

4 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Tiring because I keep proving your talking points wrong with stats, actual data, and what the "experts" said about both players at the same point in their football careers?

You're dying on the hill of "Evans prime was as a true elite player" which just by itself, woefully incorrect, T-Mac comparisons aside.  I'm not going to go through every player's seasons since Evans came into the league, but I'd be willing to bet money that Evans' best statistical season wouldn't crack the Top 15, maybe not even the Top 20, of individual WR seasons in that same time frame.

His BEST season was 96 rec, 1,321 yds, 12 TDs... which likely would have only been tied for the 3rd best WR season this year alone with Amon-Ra's 115, 1,263, 12 stat line and behind Chase/Jefferson's 127/103, 1,708/1,533, 17/10 lines.

You're also basically arguing against every player because every player COULD turn out to be a bust, but there is nothing in T-Mac's film or draft profile that suggests he is going to be a bust in general, but even more so when you directly compare him to Evans as a NFL draft prospect as the only knocks you could put on T-Mac is the exact same negatives Evans had.

You keep leaning back on what he's done in the NFL, which is just asinine to use when comparing players as prospects.  It would be like saying Josh Rosen wasn't a better prospect coming out of college than Tom Brady.

If you disregard what either did in the NFL, there isn't a single scout or analyst that ever would say Brady was a better prospect.  And yes, I realize the extreme of that example, but the concept is the same, you can't look at a single thing Evans has done in his NFL career if you're trying to just compare them as prospects coming out of college.

Yeah I'm the one dying on the hill for a player. I just provided Evans as his best possible outcome going off TMacs size and play. Your the one saying his peak is gonna be better than Evans 

Yes you certainly do keep throwing stats out and like so many other highly toughted WRs with great stats that didn't go to your Alma mater. They have a higher chance of busting than being peak Mike Evans 

[Icege]

2 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

So you're saying you'll base your opinion of his NFL prospects on his timings at the combine more than the 3 years of tape on him?

......you good? This is a weird response to somebody trying to have a good faith convo about the kid as a prospect, especially someone that's mentioned being supportive of drafting him.

Edited 3 hours ago by Icege

[tukafan21]

58 minutes ago, Icege said:

......you good? This is a weird response to somebody trying to have a good faith convo about the kid as a prospect, especially someone that's mentioned being supportive of drafting him.

I get so frustrated when anyone brings up the combine and factoring it into their draft thoughts, I genuinely think it's pointless, and if anything, hurts more than it helps.

I couldn't give a damn how fast you are running in a straight line in your underwear, I don't care what you weigh or bench press, I don't care how high you can jump two footed from a non moving position and slap some sticks.  None of those things directly translate to the field, none of them are even the same once you put pads on.  It would be like testing NHL players slap shots while wearing shoes and standing on a hardwood floor instead of skates and on ice (bad example, but I think the combine is so flawed that it's hard to come up with good metaphors).

Players can "fudge" their combine results by spending the 3 months leading into the combine solely focusing on specific combine testing.  Whether it's someone like Bryce last year, who clearly put on a bunch of bad temporary weight so they could alleviate a particular concern of teams (and then doesn't do physical tests because they know they'll struggle due to the weight).  Or the guy who spends hours every day perfecting their getting out of the blocks technique to improve their 40 time to change teams opinions of them as there is nothing about it that then translates to the actual game.

Sure, it can show their work ethic, but in the end, it still doesn't translate to an NFL game.  And if they don't spend the time on that because they're too busy working on their actual craft of being a WR, then it doesn't tell you they have a bad work ethic when their time struggles either.

If you have 3 years of video evidence of a player doing something, why would them running a 4.9 or a 5.3 40 time change what you think of that player, when in the end, all that could come down to was how good that player was at firing out of the blocks and getting up to speed from a position no football player lines up in?

If you have years of tape of an OL throwing players around, but they struggle to put up great numbers in a traditional bench press, why are you then going to down grade them when there is no time in a football game that you are lying down on your back and seeing how much dead weight you can push straight up over and over again.

Decades ago, before every college game had a stupid amount of cameras so you can see every rep of every player from multiple angles, I can see how it would have been beneficial.  But not anymore, I think too many teams are putting too much weight into the combine and it shows when all they do is pick high RAS guys who don't pan out (hello Carolina Panthers).

This whole argument has nothing to do with my guy, but I have seen so many people say they need to see T-Mac's 40 time to know if they'd like him at 8 or not.

To be that's such a baffling thing, you've seen his tape, you either like him or you don't, him running 0.3 of a second faster or slower for something that is only about 5 seconds, from a non football starting position, shouldn't change your feelings towards him one way or the other.  

Edited 2 hours ago by tukafan21