Josh Norris: Panthers-Garrett Wilson trade options

[jfra78]

19 minutes ago, RumHam said:

we aren't drafting a WR at 8, sorry. get that out of your head.

I've never said I wanted a WR at 8.  I like Walker at 8 and getting someone like Royals in the 3rd or 4th

[SmokinwithWilly]

16 hours ago, tukafan21 said:

I have nothing against Mike Evans, it's that he keeps saying it's ridiculous for me to think T-Mac will be a better player than Evans, based on Evans totality of his career statistical output.

They're not the same thing, at all.  Basically what he's arguing is that it would be insane for someone to say any RB coming into the league is going to be better than Frank Gore.  There are going to be LOTS of RBs over the years who are better than Gore but will never make the HOF.  

Or how about comparing a QB to Rivers or Eli?  There are going to be a lot of QBs that you'd predict will be better, and for a period of time will be, but they won't be able to do it long enough to have the same career as those guys.

Longevity of great play does not equal an elite player, it equals an elite career.  If you're building a team for one season, health aside and looking at peak performance, there are way too many WRs over the last decade that I'd take over Evans to consider him a true elite WR in my mind.

For example, I looked it up, here is where he has finished every season ranked in Receptions and Yards

2014 - 36th in Rec and 19th in Yds

2015 - 30 and 11

2016 - 6 and 4

2017 - 23 and 15

2018 - 17 and 3

2019 - 36 and 13

2020 - 32 and 18

2021 - 28 and 22

2022 - 25 and 13

2023 - 24 and 9

2024 - 28 and 23

He's played 11 seasons, only twice finished higher than 23rd in receptions and 3 times in the Top 10 in yards, 5 of the 11 outside the Top 15.  Outside of 2016 and 2018, he really wasn't ever an elite WR outside of being an elite red zone threat.  

Evans was a great WR who had an elite career, not an elite WR

A good example would be Terrell Davis. 4 years of elite play at RB then 3 years of bleh. He wasn't able to sustain that elite level of play, but that 4 year, and really it was 3 year, stretch put him in the HoF. Evans is one of the very few that has defied the longevity of NFL careers. His best 3 years was 16-18. Those 3 years alone wouldn't put him into the HoF, but what he's done combined over the past 11 years likely will.

[tukafan21]

7 hours ago, Shocker said:

In a WR re-draft Wilson isn't getting drafted over any of these guys...

Jefferson, Chase, Amon-Ra, AJ Brown, Puka, CeeDee, Nabers, Thomas Jr, McLaurin, McConkey, Harrison Jr

Then there would be a legitimate debate between Wilson and all of these guys where some would go before him and some after, based on personal preference...

London, Aiyuk, JSN, Flowers, Devonta Smith, Olave, Moore, Pittman, Collins, Waddle, Dell, Pickens, Odunze

And that's not even considering guys who may be better players than Wilson still, but just wouldn't be drafted over him in a WR re-draft because of age/injury concerns like....

Tyreek, Diggs, Evans, Godwin, Adams, Ridley, Kupp

Again, I have nothing against Wilson, I'd love to have him on our team, but in no world can you trade the #8 pick for him and give him a big extension when if the alternative would be taking T-Mac and having the player with the higher ceiling on a rookie contract.

 

[tukafan21]

7 hours ago, MHS831 said:

I have not researched either side, so I do not have a dog in this fight, but I would like to point out that you present your points using data, stats, and specific parallels.  You don't attack the opposing person, you attack their viewpoint.  Well done.  We need more of this type of posting whether I agree with your views or not.

Appreciate it

And yea, I get people laugh at my long winded posts, but it's like you said, I lay out my full argument in them with details as to why.

It's not my fault most people on a message board like to just say we should draft/sign/trade for X player and if you don't agree, you're dumb and I'm not going to explain why I think that way.

[tukafan21]

39 minutes ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

A good example would be Terrell Davis. 4 years of elite play at RB then 3 years of bleh. He wasn't able to sustain that elite level of play, but that 4 year, and really it was 3 year, stretch put him in the HoF. Evans is one of the very few that has defied the longevity of NFL careers. His best 3 years was 16-18. Those 3 years alone wouldn't put him into the HoF, but what he's done combined over the past 11 years likely will.

Exactly

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that Evans had an elite career, a HOF career, but he was never truly an elite player at any given time during his career.  

He had a couple years where he was right there on the boarder of great to elite, but even then, I can't not fall back on, two 2nd team all pro's and never been a 1st.  This isn't the pro bowl voting where it's a joke, even if you disagree with who was left off an all pro team, it's hard to argue removing those who beat them out.

If those voters never saw him as a Top 3 WR in any season and only twice saw him as a Top 6 WR, how are you going to say he was ever a real elite player?

[Aussie Tank]

35 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Exactly

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that Evans had an elite career, a HOF career, but he was never truly an elite player at any given time during his career.  

He had a couple years where he was right there on the boarder of great to elite, but even then, I can't not fall back on, two 2nd team all pro's and never been a 1st.  This isn't the pro bowl voting where it's a joke, even if you disagree with who was left off an all pro team, it's hard to argue removing those who beat them out.

If those voters never saw him as a Top 3 WR in any season and only twice saw him as a Top 6 WR, how are you going to say he was ever a real elite player?

Oh I understand fully you point. I still just can't wrap my head around how you can say he has a higher ceiling than Mike Evans when he's smaller and gonna have to run sub 4.53 to be faster and has separation issues. 

I just feel you're very premature in knighting the man 

[jfra78]

18 minutes ago, Aussie Tank said:

Oh I understand fully you point. I still just can't wrap my head around how you can say he has a higher ceiling than Mike Evans when he's smaller and gonna have to run sub 4.53 to be faster and has separation issues. 

I just feel you're very premature in knighting the man 

He just has a hard on for him solely because he went to his alma mater

[tukafan21]

14 minutes ago, Aussie Tank said:

Oh I understand fully you point. I still just can't wrap my head around how you can say he has a higher ceiling than Mike Evans when he's smaller and gonna have to run sub 4.53 to be faster and has separation issues. 

I just feel you're very premature in knighting the man 

Good lord, T-Mac not having the separation ability of these quick twitch 6' WRs doesn't mean he has separation issues.    

I also can't for the life of me understand why people are so focused on the 40 yard dash in today's day and age, it literally means absolutely nothing, it's a straight line run, with no defenders, no pads, and is significantly dependent on the player's ability to fire out of a track stance, something no player ever starts a play from and something the taller players tend to struggle with just due to physics.

So, if T-Mac comes out and runs a 5.52, combined with his better college stats than Evans had, does that somehow completely change your opinion on him because he's now "faster" than Evans was coming out of school?

For what it's worth, I just went and looked up a Walter Football's draft profile for Evans, and here were his negatives....

• Quicker than fast
• Doesn't always get separation
• Drops some passes
• Could stand to improve his hands

So, basically the same negatives people on here feel about T-Mac in regards to being quicker than fast and separation "issues" which again, I don't use that as a fault on these type of players as they bring other positives that the smaller players who excel in that area just can't provide.  

Except the difference is nobody out there has ever said T-Mac has to improve his hands, it's literally the opposite, his hands are lauded as next level.

Now let's go look at T-Mac's negatives from the same website's draft profile......

• Lacks elite speed

That's it, literally that's their only listed negative for him (I'm not saying he doesn't have others, in fact I've noted others, but this is the same site and they don't seem to have the same concerns you have).

I feel like you're knighting Evans based on his HOF statistical career and retroactively saying that meant he was a better prospect coming out of college than T-Mac, with no actual facts, data, or game tape to back up that claim.

 

[tukafan21]

15 minutes ago, jfra78 said:

He just has a hard on for him solely because he went to his alma mater

Yep, I've never hid the fact that I went to Arizona and love him because of that.

But that doesn't alter my views on him as a player, I've watched every snap of his career, I know his game better than any other person on this site.

Not to mention, not a single person here can say I am just a homer, look at the negative things I've said about the Panthers this year.  Hell.... look back at the threads talking about T-Mac and I'm constantly criticizing Arizona's football team this year as well.

I call it like I see it, and if I go a little over the top on defending T-Mac, it's because too many people on here come out with drastically insane takes that are clearly born out of looking at his height and/or a 2 minute highlight video that generally shows his crazy contested catches (because they genuinely are crazy and belong on his highlight reel), and not having actually watched enough of his real tape, not just the highlights.

Edited 37 minutes ago by tukafan21

[tukafan21]

37 minutes ago, Aussie Tank said:

Oh I understand fully you point. I still just can't wrap my head around how you can say he has a higher ceiling than Mike Evans when he's smaller and gonna have to run sub 4.53 to be faster and has separation issues. 

I just feel you're very premature in knighting the man 

You know what... just did a little more research and just saw this breakdown of T-Mac's weaknesses, just thought it was fair to put both sides out there........

Monotone mover with pedestrian speed -- cannot separate vertically or pull away from the pack. Unsudden acceleration. Stiff hips. Will have to make a living in traffic at the next level -- will struggle to separate vs. quick-twitch NFL cornerbacks. Did not run a full route tree and could require patience learning the nuances of refined route running. Backyard element to his college success -- must become savvier instead of depending on superior size and improvisational production. Can be hotheaded and lose control of his emotions. Basketball was first love.

 

Oh... shoot, you know what, I made a mistake, I accidentally copied and pasted another one of Evan's draft profiles coming out of school, my bad.

[Aussie Tank]

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

You know what... just did a little more research and just saw this breakdown of T-Mac's weaknesses, just thought it was fair to put both sides out there........

Monotone mover with pedestrian speed -- cannot separate vertically or pull away from the pack. Unsudden acceleration. Stiff hips. Will have to make a living in traffic at the next level -- will struggle to separate vs. quick-twitch NFL cornerbacks. Did not run a full route tree and could require patience learning the nuances of refined route running. Backyard element to his college success -- must become savvier instead of depending on superior size and improvisational production. Can be hotheaded and lose control of his emotions. Basketball was first love.

 

Oh... shoot, you know what, I made a mistake, I accidentally copied and pasted another one of Evan's draft profiles coming out of school, my bad.

Yes your getting there. Same concerns and TMac is a lesser prospect. Now if you draft TMac you hope he turns into Mike Evans and not K'neal Harry 

[tukafan21]

6 minutes ago, Aussie Tank said:

Yes your getting there. Same concerns and TMac is a lesser prospect. Now if you draft TMac you hope he turns into Mike Evans and not K'neal Harry 

You literally haven't said one thing yet to explain your views on Evans being a better prospect.

T-Mac had better stats and has less negatives in his draft profiles when comparing the two, but you still keep saying that.  If anything, they both had the same speed/separation question marks, but T-Mac is universally lauded for having unreal hands while that was a question mark for Evans coming out.

So, please explain then what makes T-Mac a lesser prospect than Evans and you can't say a single thing about Evans long term health to allow him to compile a HOF resume in the NFL as that's a ludicrous argument to use when comparing them as prospects, like you keep claiming Evans was the better prospect.

[Icege]

12 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

You literally haven't said one thing yet to explain your views on Evans being a better prospect.

T-Mac had better stats and has less negatives in his draft profiles when comparing the two, but you still keep saying that.  If anything, they both had the same speed/separation question marks, but T-Mac is universally lauded for having unreal hands while that was a question mark for Evans coming out.

So, please explain then what makes T-Mac a lesser prospect than Evans and you can't say a single thing about Evans long term health to allow him to compile a HOF resume in the NFL as that's a ludicrous argument to use when comparing them as prospects, like you keep claiming Evans was the better prospect.

To be fair, we haven't seen T-Mac's combine measurables yet. They're going to be comparing him to Evans all day, especially since he went at #7 and wasn't considered the best WR in his class. Hunter is currently considered WR1 and Sammy Watkins ended up being the first WR off of the board when Evans was drafted.