Anyone left who does not believe in Bryce ?

[Navy_football]

1 hour ago, frankw said:

Cam Newton is the only MVP in franchise history. No there isn't anyone arguing he had no help. But he was the engine of the team and the team more often than not went as he went. That is generally always how it has been for the QB position and that isn't going to change.

But even with Cam for all the talk of his weapons his best most consistent weapon was his TE Greg Olsen. And Greg Olsen himself credits Cam immensely for his career.

There you go back to diminishing guys like Chuba Hubbard to run cover for Bryce. How is that helping anything here? You look just as ridiculous as those you criticize.

Come on frank. That's not what he posted. So where is the 2023 Panthers better than the 2011 Panthers? And Greg wasn't even remotely Cam's favorite target in 2011. He was probably 4th or 5th down the list. 

Now, I 100% believe Cam would have done better with last year's team than Bryce Young. Cam and maybe Lamar are the only rookies that could have done anything with that team. But, he wouldn't have been OROY, and he wouldn't have broken so many records. Except maybe the rushing TDs record for a QB. He may have still broken that. 

From oline, to receiving targets, to running backs, to OC, to HC, to even owner - Cam had a much better rookie situation than Bryce Young and it's really not close. 

 

[frankw]

36 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

Come on frank. That's not what he posted. So where is the 2023 Panthers better than the 2011 Panthers? And Greg wasn't even remotely Cam's favorite target in 2011. He was probably 4th or 5th down the list. 

Now, I 100% believe Cam would have done better with last year's team than Bryce Young. Cam and maybe Lamar are the only rookies that could have done anything with that team. But, he wouldn't have been OROY, and he wouldn't have broken so many records. Except maybe the rushing TDs record for a QB. He may have still broken that. 

From oline, to receiving targets, to running backs, to OC, to HC, to even owner - Cam had a much better rookie situation than Bryce Young and it's really not close. 

 

I'm not dealing in what if scenarios. Cam's rookie season is in the books and so is Bryce's. We can't change or rewrite history. I'm really trying to be reasonable and respectful here but I'm also really tired of seeing revisionist history being applied as a means to make Bryce Young look like he's been working with the absolute worst offensive supporting cast in history while Cam always had the best everything.

Cam Newton was regarded as a low IQ potential trouble maker who was possibly not even a superior passer to Blaine Gabbert or Jake Locker heading into the 2011 draft and Jerry Richardson wouldn't even sign off on him as the pick before telling him no to tattoos and cornrows.

Let's just be real about this. First of all Rob Chudzinksi was Cam's OC his rookie year and Cam's heroics somehow got him a head coaching opportunity and he did absolutely nothing the rest of his coaching career. Ron Rivera while I like him and think he is a respectable coach he found himself on the hot seat in honestly his second season and certainly by his third and it was Cam Newton who encouraged him to be less conservative to a fault and frankly saved his job.

Almost nobody expected the 2011 Panthers to look the way they did in a lockout year. Hell half this damn board at the time wanted nothing to do with drafting Cam. Now I've got people trying to convince me that was one of the franchises best roster years. Do you even remember what became of the 2011 draft class minus Cam Newton? Do you remember watching the defense?

Cam Newton and Steve Smith did the heavy lifting that year and were the reason the team was even watchable. As far as the run game Cam Newton had 706 rushing yards and 14 touchdowns to go with his passing numbers. The guy was simply a monster in his prime and while he let us down in some pivotal moments he also often singlehandedly kept us in games. That's the resume of a more than worthy #1 overall pick.

Edited 1 hour ago by frankw

[CPantherKing]

6 minutes ago, Frank9999 said:

One thing I am going to say is I think its silly when people say QBs cant be labeled good until that have a winning season. Cam was good before he had a winning season and lots of other QBs have been too. Winning in the NFL is not just a QB thing. Bryce was legit good week 9 on. I will say he has to keep doing that into next year but its possible he has a good season and Panthers still have a losing record next year 

You're bring extremely generous in your comparisons. Cam Newton's first season was 4800 yards, 35TDs and ORoY. He rattled off 400 to 500 yards a game to begin his career and consistently put up 300 yards a game. Cam had several 3 TD games and a couple 4 TD games.

Young looked like the worst starting QB from the draft in his rookie season. Then he was benched after face planting in the first 2 weeks of his 2nd season.

Young faced 5 good pass defenses in his 12 starts (Saints 2x, Chargers, Broncos, and Eagles). He didn't look good against any of them. He then struggled against mediocre to poor pass defenses against the Giants, Cowboys, and Bucs 2x.

You're hanging hopes on 3 (2W-1L) games in 2024 (Falcons, Cardinals and Chiefs). Falcons and Cardinals were the worst pass defenses in the league. Hope was placed into 3 (1W-2L) games from 2023 (Lions, Texans and Packers). Those were all playoff teams. That isn't a step back?

Collins, Beuerlein, Peete, Delhomme, Newton, Allen, Bridgewater, and Darnold all gave more hope to the franchise in their first 1 to 2 seasons as starter than Young. Mayfield was only given 6 starts before giving up on him.

Young still needs to defeat more than 1 winning team, put up more than 1 300+ yard game and produce a 3+ game winning streak to catch up to the above QBs.

He's improved from Clausen level to just above Weinke level (Rams moral victory). Our hope is that Young can surpass Peete and Bridgewater now with multiple 300+ yard games, a 3 game win streak, 2+ wins over teams that don't have a losing record, and more than one 3+ TD game. Panthers 2024 is how I'd expect a 2nd year for Weinke in 2002 to have gone if they started him 2 weeks, benched him for Peete and then started him for the final 10 games.

I hope we have a Delhomme ready to play in 2025 in case the 2024 QB struggles repeat.

Keep this in mind, if Young had back to back weeks of producing moral victories against the 2 SB teams with 3 TDs in each game including a 300+ yard game, posted 4 wins on the season, and had a 3 game win streak, you'd be crowning him as a decade long franchise QB. That's with 28 starts under his belt as a Panther. You'd be heralding Young as a future MVP if he did this in his first 14 starts as a Panther.

This season performance wasn't good enough to buy that QB another season.

[Sup]

It would be foolish to say there aren't real positives from the end of the season but overall the level of optimism here is too high.

A bunch of extremely mid games that only felt good because of how disastrous he was before, then a couple good/very good games against questionable defenses.

I at least now think he COULD be a real NFL quarterback, which I didn't before, but I'm not sold yet.

[Navy_football]

1 hour ago, frankw said:

I'm not dealing in what if scenarios. Cam's rookie season is in the books and so is Bryce's. We can't change or rewrite history. I'm really trying to be reasonable and respectful here but I'm also really tired of seeing revisionist history being applied as a means to make Bryce Young look like he's been working with the absolute worst offensive supporting cast in history while Cam always had the best everything.

Cam Newton was regarded as a low IQ potential trouble maker who was possibly not even a superior passer to Blaine Gabbert or Jake Locker heading into the 2011 draft and Jerry Richardson wouldn't even sign off on him as the pick before telling him no to tattoos and cornrows.

Let's just be real about this. First of all Rob Chudzinksi was Cam's OC his rookie year and Cam's heroics somehow got him a head coaching opportunity and he did absolutely nothing the rest of his coaching career. Ron Rivera while I like him and think he is a respectable coach he found himself on the hot seat in honestly his second season and certainly by his third and it was Cam Newton who encouraged him to be less conservative to a fault and frankly saved his job.

Almost nobody expected the 2011 Panthers to look the way they did in a lockout year. Hell half this damn board at the time wanted nothing to do with drafting Cam. Now I've got people trying to convince me that was one of the franchises best roster years. Do you even remember what became of the 2011 draft class minus Cam Newton? Do you remember watching the defense?

Cam Newton and Steve Smith did the heavy lifting that year and were the reason the team was even watchable. As far as the run game Cam Newton had 706 rushing yards and 14 touchdowns to go with his passing numbers. The guy was simply a monster in his prime and while he let us down in some pivotal moments he also often singlehandedly kept us in games. That's the resume of a more than worthy #1 overall pick.

Agree with most of the points you just made. But that wasn't the discussion. Cam was an icon and a whole mood in the NFL. No arguments there. 

The discussion was: who had the better rookie offense, personnel wise? That was the only point Ice was making, and that's the only point I'm making here.

But I will say, offensively that is the best roster this team has had since then. Yeah the defense wasn't good though. Beason and Davis both were injured early in the season if I remember correctly. But they did have better edge rushers and DBs. I don't even remember the DTs then so they probably were bad. But they did have McDermott leading them along with Rivera. The draft class was - Cam. That's it.