We have a franchise QB

[CRA]

16 minutes ago, Car123 said:

Moving goalposts. Did Hurts and Allen have the all time worst defense?

No but we are talking QB play.  Which is why I referenced them having more offensive production.    

so what’s the argument Bryce is better if we aren’t using offense production?  

and really, QBs with horrific D should have inflated O production.  Because you are in score mode or better yet garbage time all season. 

[PadresPanthersFan]

2 hours ago, T-Wazzle said:

He knew it bc it wasn't x....

[tukafan21]

24 minutes ago, Car123 said:

Name the 20 QBs you’d take over Bryce to build the future of the franchise with.

Easy.... (in order by divisions just for ease of going through each team)

Allen, Tua, Maye, Lamar, Burrow, Stroud, Richardson, Lawrence, Mahomes, Herbert, Nix, Hurts, Daniels, Dak, Goff, Love, Williams, Darnold/McCarthy, Baker, Penix, Purdy, Kyler

That's 23 right there that I'd take with an eye on the future, and it doesn't include the older guys who are still better than Bryce like a Stafford or Geno.  It doesn't include any rookies who will come in over the next few years that I think will have a better career than Bryce as well.

Even if you want to argue a few of those guys like Richardson, Penix, Darnold/McCarthy, or Tua (health) don't belong there on your list, I think at least a couple of them end up better than Bryce, which still keeps Bryce outside the Top 20 QB's moving forward.

For me in the end, it's Bryce's physical limitations that hurt his prospects for me.  I think the right coaches can easily build up someone like AR to be a better QB than Bryce.  Sure, it's going to take the right coaching staff to do it or he could be a bust, but I'd still bet on his physical talents over Bryce's physical limitations.

The point is, even if you want to remove some of those guys off your personal list, that 20ish spot is really his max potential if everything goes right for him, he's never cracking the Top 16 to be an above average starting QB. 

Edited Sunday at 11:56 PM by tukafan21

[tukafan21]

10 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Easy.... (in order by divisions just for ease of going through each team)

Allen, Tua, Maye, Lamar, Burrow, Stroud, Richardson, Lawrence, Mahomes, Herbert, Nix, Hurts, Daniels, Dak, Goff, Love, Williams, Darnold/McCarthy, Baker, Penix, Purdy, Kyler

That's 23 right there that I'd take with an eye on the future, and it doesn't include the older guys who are still better than Bryce like a Stafford or Geno.  It doesn't include any rookies who will come in over the next few years that I think will have a better career than Bryce as well.

Even if you want to argue a few of those guys like Richardson, Penix, Darnold/McCarthy, or Tua (health) don't belong there on your list, I think at least a couple of them end up better than Bryce, which still keeps Bryce outside the Top 20 QB's moving forward.

For me in the end, it's Bryce's physical limitations that hurt his prospects for me.  I think the right coaches can easily build up someone like AR to be a better QB than Bryce.  Sure, it's going to take the right coaching staff to do it or he could be a bust, but I'd still bet on his physical talents over Bryce's physical limitations.

The point is, even if you want to remove some of those guys off your personal list, that 20ish spot is really his max potential if everything goes right for him, he's never cracking the Top 16 to be an above average starting QB. 

And also, none of this means I think all of the guys above are SB contending caliber QB's either.

But I do think they all have higher potential than Bryce, which is the question at hand.

[SmokinwithWilly]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

I wish there was a way to see what all these posters who are excited about this win (and the Cardinals win) were saying 3-4 years ago when we were winning those meaningless late season games.

I'll bet they were saying the same thing, "this is how you build a culture" and "it's going to carry over into next year" and "blah blah blah"

That to me is why I don't understand all the hate I get for taking this stance, it's not like we're some new franchise that has never gone through this before.  We've been doing it for YEARS, we win these meaningless late season games, a group of fans think it's the start of a turnaround of the franchise, but all it does is hurt our ability to draft better players and we rinse and repeat the next year.

I don't take joy in saying this stuff, but I just call it like I see it.  

Yes, Bryce played better the last 2 months, but there are still at least 20 QB's that I'd take over him in a heartbeat right now.  You're not going to ever contend in today's NFL with a QB who is outside the Top 20 in the league, it's just the way the game is played these days.

Getting excited about possible mediocrity just because we've been garbage for so long is now how you build a winning franchise, it's how you get stuck in NFL purgatory, and I'm sick of being stuck there.

I get what you're saying. These couple of wins are virtually meaningless because half this team isn't going to be here next year. We have a serious lack of talent all over and being able to trade away the 1st for what we gave up to Chicago could go a long way towards adding premier pieces the next couple of years. A couple of 1sts or a 1st swap with a couple 2nds and 3rds could let us add premium talent at certain positions. 

I like what we're seeing from Bryce but I want to see more across a full season. I don't know if he is or isn't the guy. This will be an interesting off season but I'm not ready to declare we're playoff bound after going 5-12 with wins over teams with god awful defenses. 

I think he deserves to be the #1 QB for us going into camp, but we still need competition because we should always be trying to improve the position and we're 1 hit away from career changing injury (see Cam). 

[Jaxel]

20 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Easy.... (in order by divisions just for ease of going through each team)

Allen, Tua, Maye, Lamar, Burrow, Stroud, Richardson, Lawrence, Mahomes, Herbert, Nix, Hurts, Daniels, Dak, Goff, Love, Williams, Darnold/McCarthy, Baker, Penix, Purdy, Kyler

That's 23 right there that I'd take with an eye on the future, and it doesn't include the older guys who are still better than Bryce like a Stafford or Geno.  It doesn't include any rookies who will come in over the next few years that I think will have a better career than Bryce as well.

Even if you want to argue a few of those guys like Richardson, Penix, Darnold/McCarthy, or Tua (health) don't belong there on your list, I think at least a couple of them end up better than Bryce, which still keeps Bryce outside the Top 20 QB's moving forward.

For me in the end, it's Bryce's physical limitations that hurt his prospects for me.  I think the right coaches can easily build up someone like AR to be a better QB than Bryce.  Sure, it's going to take the right coaching staff to do it or he could be a bust, but I'd still bet on his physical talents over Bryce's physical limitations.

The point is, even if you want to remove some of those guys off your personal list, that 20ish spot is really his max potential if everything goes right for him, he's never cracking the Top 16 to be an above average starting QB. 

You'd take Richardson???? LMAO

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, SmokinwithWilly said:

I get what you're saying. These couple of wins are virtually meaningless because half this team isn't going to be here next year. We have a serious lack of talent all over and being able to trade away the 1st for what we gave up to Chicago could go a long way towards adding premier pieces the next couple of years. A couple of 1sts or a 1st swap with a couple 2nds and 3rds could let us add premium talent at certain positions. 

I like what we're seeing from Bryce but I want to see more across a full season. I don't know if he is or isn't the guy. This will be an interesting off season but I'm not ready to declare we're playoff bound after going 5-12 with wins over teams with god awful defenses. 

I think he deserves to be the #1 QB for us going into camp, but we still need competition because we should always be trying to improve the position and we're 1 hit away from career changing injury (see Cam). 

I'll be the first to admit that the Bryce over the last 2 months has been lightyears better than the Bryce I was bashing the first year and a half of his career.

The problem is he is now looking like the Bryce that I thought we were drafting.

A solid game manager who sees the game at an elite level, but will always be held back by his physical limitations.  That he's going to be the type of QB who is never bad enough to let walk in FA, but also not good enough to turn a team into a contender unless you have the PERFECT roster built around him.  And even then, you'd be a contender because of the rest of the roster, not the QB.

The problem is even if you build that perfect roster, it's usually done on rookie contracts and you can only keep that roster together for a season or two before you lose too many key contributors.

This is how you get stuck in NFL purgatory, it's not how you build a constant contender of a franchise.

People are getting excited because we're better than we were before.  I don't want to be better than we were before, because that's an extremely low bar.  I want to be a winning franchise, and I flat out don't see Bryce being the type of QB who can do that for a team.

[CRA]

2 minutes ago, Jaxel said:

You'd take Richardson???? LMAO

Richardson is essentially the one young QB I am certain Bryce will be better than. 

[Vinício Grossi]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

I wish there was a way to see what all these posters who are excited about this win (and the Cardinals win) were saying 3-4 years ago when we were winning those meaningless late season games.

I'll bet they were saying the same thing, "this is how you build a culture" and "it's going to carry over into next year" and "blah blah blah"

That to me is why I don't understand all the hate I get for taking this stance, it's not like we're some new franchise that has never gone through this before.  We've been doing it for YEARS, we win these meaningless late season games, a group of fans think it's the start of a turnaround of the franchise, but all it does is hurt our ability to draft better players and we rinse and repeat the next year.

I don't take joy in saying this stuff, but I just call it like I see it.  

Yes, Bryce played better the last 2 months, but there are still at least 20 QB's that I'd take over him in a heartbeat right now.  You're not going to ever contend in today's NFL with a QB who is outside the Top 20 in the league, it's just the way the game is played these days.

Getting excited about possible mediocrity just because we've been garbage for so long is now how you build a winning franchise, it's how you get stuck in NFL purgatory, and I'm sick of being stuck there.

Jordan Groos 8th pick

Thomas Davis 14th pick

Luke Kuechly 9th pick

Jonathan Stewart 13th pick

Star Lotulei 14th pick

Christian McCaffrey 8th pick

Derrick Brown 7th pick

It's so easy to deconstruct empty speeches with small facts. This talk of losing due to draft picks falls apart when we tell the truth.

 

 

[tukafan21]

Just now, Jaxel said:

You'd take Richardson???? LMAO

With the right coaches, 100%

Bryce and AR are essentially polar opposites of each other.  One has ungodly physical ability, the other is extremely limited.  One sees the game at an elite level, the other severely struggles with it so far.

The point isn't about who they are as QB's right now, it's about what they will be 5 years from now.  I'd rather bet on hiring the right coaches to get the best out of AR and get the most out of his physical abilities.  

AR's upside is miles higher than Bryce's due to the physical differences between them.  Will it pan out that way?  Who knows, but since I don't think Bryce will ever be a Top 20 QB in this league, I'm taking the chance on the guy with uber elite physical traits.

Yes, right now Bryce is a better QB, but I don't care about right now, just like I don't care about the win today.  Right now does nothing for the team 3 years from now.  Sure, AR could be out of the league while Bryce is still a starter in 3 years.  

But if you're betting on one becoming a Top 15 QB 3 years from now, I'm putting every dollar I have on AR there, because I don't think Bryce has a snowball's chance in hell at doing that.

Sure, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am, Bryce just isn't that guy to me, never has been.

[Aussie Tank]

2 hours ago, *FreeFua* said:

Would have to be an idiot to think otherwise 

There's still plenty here 

[tukafan21]

2 minutes ago, Vinício Grossi said:

Jordan Groos 8th pick

Thomas Davis 14th pick

Luke Kuechly 9th pick

Jonathan Stewart 13th pick

Star Lotulei 14th pick

Christian McCaffrey 8th pick

Derrick Brown 7th pick

It's so easy to deconstruct empty speeches with small facts. This talk of losing due to draft picks falls apart when we tell the truth.

 

 

We missed out on Herbert and Sewell by 1 pick each.  I'm not going to go through every draft to find difference making players that we could have had, but you can do the same thing both ways.

Fact is we lose both these OT games and we have the #1 pick, which likely is being turned into multiple 1st's and another couple other picks.

There is no world where these 2 wins and the 8th pick in the draft is better for our future than ending up with say the 5th pick, another 2nd, and then an extra 2026 and maybe 2027 1st rounder.

Culture isn't built because you pull out an OT win, it's built because of everything the team does through the season.  Our culture moving forward would be exactly the same had we lost those two OT games in the end, but because we didn't, we miss out on A TON of talent.

[Aussie Tank]

2 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

With the right coaches, 100%

Bryce and AR are essentially polar opposites of each other.  One has ungodly physical ability, the other is extremely limited.  One sees the game at an elite level, the other severely struggles with it so far.

The point isn't about who they are as QB's right now, it's about what they will be 5 years from now.  I'd rather bet on hiring the right coaches to get the best out of AR and get the most out of his physical abilities.  

AR's upside is miles higher than Bryce's due to the physical differences between them.  Will it pan out that way?  Who knows, but since I don't think Bryce will ever be a Top 20 QB in this league, I'm taking the chance on the guy with uber elite physical traits.

Yes, right now Bryce is a better QB, but I don't care about right now, just like I don't care about the win today.  Right now does nothing for the team 3 years from now.  Sure, AR could be out of the league while Bryce is still a starter in 3 years.  

But if you're betting on one becoming a Top 15 QB 3 years from now, I'm putting every dollar I have on AR there, because I don't think Bryce has a snowball's chance in hell at doing that.

Sure, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am, Bryce just isn't that guy to me, never has been.

Stop it with the physical traits stuff the Goats of the position were as slow as molasses without cannons. 

[Jaxel]

5 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

With the right coaches, 100%

Bryce and AR are essentially polar opposites of each other.  One has ungodly physical ability, the other is extremely limited.  One sees the game at an elite level, the other severely struggles with it so far.

The point isn't about who they are as QB's right now, it's about what they will be 5 years from now.  I'd rather bet on hiring the right coaches to get the best out of AR and get the most out of his physical abilities.  

AR's upside is miles higher than Bryce's due to the physical differences between them.  Will it pan out that way?  Who knows, but since I don't think Bryce will ever be a Top 20 QB in this league, I'm taking the chance on the guy with uber elite physical traits.

Yes, right now Bryce is a better QB, but I don't care about right now, just like I don't care about the win today.  Right now does nothing for the team 3 years from now.  Sure, AR could be out of the league while Bryce is still a starter in 3 years.  

But if you're betting on one becoming a Top 15 QB 3 years from now, I'm putting every dollar I have on AR there, because I don't think Bryce has a snowball's chance in hell at doing that.

Sure, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think I am, Bryce just isn't that guy to me, never has been.

AR's upside right now is just staying healthy for 6 games. 

Edited yesterday at 12:25 AM by Jaxel