Canales and use of Tight Ends

[CRA]

6 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

100% agree.

101%

 

 

[kungfoodude]

Just now, CRA said:

101%

 

 

Yeah, anyone who has been mega impressed with DC as an OC had their brain broken by the Rhule/Reich eras.

[Martin]

He is a rookie HC. It was a learning year for him as well. I bet things will look very different in year 2. I still think we found a good one.

[Jon Snow]

14 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Yeah, anyone who has been mega impressed with DC as an OC had their brain broken by the Rhule/Reich eras.

I'm not that impressed. He definitely has better play designs but is in-game play calling leave a lot to be desired. He needs to relinquish play calling duties on gameday.

[Mage]

42 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Right but he doesn't change this behavior, regardless. He is a very suspect playcaller. I think a clever play designer, sure.

I respect your opinion, but I'm not sure I buy it.  Context matters, and I'm not sure that there is any statistical or visual evidence to support your claim that Canales wouldn't try to establish the run when we held a lead.  Besides the fact the team didn't play with a lead often.  

I can't find any numbers that would show our run % when we did have the lead, but Andy Dalton only had 27 pass attempts when we held a lead.  Bryce Young had 55.  So again we just weren't running a lot of plays in general with a lead, certainly not enough to come to the conclusion that Canales isn't willing to run the ball when we are in a position to do so.  Hell, in general, we are 32nd in plays ran.  It is why we are both 26th in rush attempts and 18th in pass attempts.  So it isn't like our run/pass split is that far off.

At the end of the day, as I made a list of in the last thread this came up in, you can have the intention of doing something but be unable to do it because of team limitations.  How can you be a top running team in attempts when you give up the most points in the NFL?  In Kyle Shanahan's first season with the 49ers, they were 22nd in rush attempts, but nobody would dare accuse Shanahan of not wanting to establish the run.  In Campbell's 1st season in Detroit, they were 21st.  They have become one of the most run heavy teams over the last 3 years.  Go down the list of teams who were last in points allowed and see how often they ran the ball.  Other than the ones with running QBs like Justin Fields, all of them were near the bottom in rush attempts.  

And don't get this twisted: I'm not trying to argue Canales is some great play-caller.  I agree his play-calling can be suspect.  But I think it is unfair to blame him for our lack of run attempts while ignoring the circumstances that would explain why we didn't run the ball even more.  Now if you want to blame him for those circumstances (bad defense, no RB2, horrible passing game), feel free as he is the HC and that is his responsibility. 

In my opinion, Canales suffers more from a lack of creativity, not an unwillingness to run the ball.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Mage

[kungfoodude]

6 minutes ago, Mage said:

I respect your opinion, but I'm not buying it.  You can't look at something and completely ignore context, and I'm not sure that there is any statistical or visual evidence to support your claim that Canales wouldn't try to establish the run when we held a lead.  Besides the fact the team didn't play with a lead often.  I watched every single game and in the times we did have a lead, we ran the ball or attempted to. 

I can't find any numbers that would show our run % when we did have the lead, but Andy Dalton only had 27 pass attempts when we held a lead.  Bryce Young had 55.  So again we just weren't running a lot of plays in general with a lead, certainly not enough to come to the conclusion that Canales isn't willing to run the ball when we are in a position to do so.  Hell, in general, we are 32nd in plays ran.  It is why we are both 26th in rush attempts and 18th in pass attempts.  So it isn't like our run/pass split is that far off.

At the end of the day, as I made a list of in the last thread this came up in, you can have the intention of doing something but be unable to do it because of team limitations.  How can you be a top running team in attempts when you give up the most points in the NFL?  In Kyle Shanahan's first season with the 49ers, they were 22nd in rush attempts, but nobody would dare accuse Shanahan of not wanting to establish the run.  In Campbell's 1st season in Detroit, they were 21st.  They have become one of the most run heavy teams over the last 3 years.  Go down the list of teams who were last in points allowed and see how often they ran the ball.  Other than the ones with running QBs like Justin Fields, all of them were near the bottom in rush attempts.  

And don't get this twisted: I'm not trying to argue Canales is some great play-caller.  I agree his play-calling can be suspect.  But I think it is unfair to blame him for our lack of run attempts while ignoring the circumstances that would explain why we didn't run the ball even more.  Now if you want to blame him for those circumstances (bad defense, no RB2, horrible passing game), feel free as he is the HC and that is his responsibility. 

In my opinion, Canales suffers more from a lack of creativity, not an unwillingness to run the ball.

I am not arguing about rushing attempts at all. I am saying he all too often will go pass happy after 2-3 very successful running plays. He has killed multiple drives doing this over the course of the season. I am not arguing we should be hitting X percentage of rushing plays per game in a scenario with a historically bad offense but when you are calling plays that are working, then you bludgeon that team with them or at least set up a nice play action strike. That's not Canales. He runs hot and cold and when he is feeling himself, it often seems like he just starts breaking out the passing plays over and over until we HAVE to pass because we got jammed up in a 3rd and long scenario.

This happens literally almost every game at least one drive. It's another reason I say that I am not very impressed with him as a play caller. He seems to do well with the scripted plays but once he gets into the flow of the game, he seems to be far less effective.

 

[TD alt]

I think Canales is trying to find his way. Within that same vein, we were officially put out weeks ago, so I think he's experimenting a little bit. I really didn't see anything egregious in the playoffs last season. If he had had a real RB, they may have won the game.

[panthers55]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

He is a rookie HC. It was a learning year for him as well. I bet things will look very different in year 2. I still think we found a good one.

Spot on. When you hire a head coach with zero head coach experience you have to expect issues along the way. He never called plays and head coached before at the same time. It is a learning curve. His job was to fix Bryce and the offense. Both very much works in progress.

Edited December 31, 2024 by panthers55

[Ricky Prickles]

I still think Canales needs an offensive coordinator to run plays so he can focus on JUST leading and head coaching. I feel if he could find an OC that he would trust, his skills as a leader and motivator could best be utilized. 

[Gapanthersfan]

56 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

I am not arguing about rushing attempts at all. I am saying he all too often will go pass happy after 2-3 very successful running plays. He has killed multiple drives doing this over the course of the season. I am not arguing we should be hitting X percentage of rushing plays per game in a scenario with a historically bad offense but when you are calling plays that are working, then you bludgeon that team with them or at least set up a nice play action strike. That's not Canales. He runs hot and cold and when he is feeling himself, it often seems like he just starts breaking out the passing plays over and over until we HAVE to pass because we got jammed up in a 3rd and long scenario.

This happens literally almost every game at least one drive. It's another reason I say that I am not very impressed with him as a play caller. He seems to do well with the scripted plays but once he gets into the flow of the game, he seems to be far less effective.

 

This.

Chuba will have 2-3 gashing runs in a row. 10+ yard variety. The defense hasn’t had a chance to change personnel, and then he’ll call 3 low percentage passes in a row. 3rd and 3? Bomb it, son. Ok, now punt. Our defense is tired. In the blink of an eye they’re now down 17 -0 instead of the game being potentially 10-7 had he just continued to do the obvious. Good job being down 3 scores instead of 1. He gets allergic to the run at the worst possible time. 

He definitely feels himself, frequently. Thielen and Chuba have bailed him out time and time again. 

[RevJ]

Thomas will make just under $2 million per reception and over $3/4 million per yard gained.  I don't have NC Statutes at hand but it seems like this should be illegal.

 

[mrcompletely11]

31 minutes ago, panthers55 said:

Spot on. When you hire a head coach with zero head coach experience you have to expect issues along the way. He never called plays and head coached before at the same time. It is a learning curve. His job was to fix Bryce and the offense. Both very much works in progress.

We are averaging 290 yards a game, almost dead last but hey that is up from 265 last year.  So I guess technically you are correct

[Navy_football]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

He is a rookie HC. It was a learning year for him as well. I bet things will look very different in year 2. I still think we found a good one.

I agree with your opinion. Add in that he's only been a playcaller one year before coming to Carolina. Maybe he wanted to take a hands on approach with Bryce's development by being the primary voice in his ear, instead of like last season where several coaches were telling Bryce several different things. I think Canales is growing as a HC and an OC. All while trying to develop a second year QB. Particularly an anomaly like Bryce. Tall task for anyone, but I think he is/will figure it out.

[outlaw4]

2 hours ago, Jon Snow said:

He's tasked to play everywhere because the rest cannot. They are limited to specific roles. That limits what you can do on offense. 

I'd say Moore is the next most versatile already being familiar with this system but he's just a guy. Maybe Thompkins for similar reasons but everything I've seen tells me he's really more of a decoy to get other guys open. 

After that, you have Tremble followed by a massive drop-off with the three rookies in XL/Coker/JT, all who get a fair amount of snaps together. Hopefully, getting a lot of experience now will speed things up for year two but it's certainly hampering things on the short term. 

Part of me thinks that need to give the the rookies the reps on the field sneaks into the playcalling. Like how Canales really wanted XL out there for the Bucs game and he ends up getting a lot of targets. A little surprised JT isn't getting that type of focus but it's possible they are working him more with blocking since he had issues with holding calls earlier in the year.