Hot Take: This team will never get over the hump, until we move on from Bryce.

[Icege]

11 hours ago, CRA said:

I’m not saying it should be negative.  I’m saying it’s not brag worthy.   If Hubbard rushes for 160 and you pass for 150….that’s not a toot the horn of the QB type day.  And if you are using that day, it’d because there isn’t much to brag about.   
 

 
 

 

On the flip side, if those limited stats were accumulated via great plays, willfully dismissing them isn't much to denigrate about either.

[mav1234]

58 minutes ago, Icege said:

On the flip side, if those limited stats were accumulated via great plays, willfully dismissing them isn't much to denigrate about either.

I think that's true, and it's fine to point out how he's made some critical plays. But overall imo he's still not quite putting together the consistent high level play within and between games a lot of us want to see out of a QB (he's had stretches, which is promising). That's why the need to subset Bryce's games to ever smaller subsets (the last 2 games in this conversation) to prove how good he is / his place in the league becomes silly I think.

 

Edited Thursday at 02:25 PM by mav1234

[CRA]

1 hour ago, Icege said:

On the flip side, if those limited stats were accumulated via great plays, willfully dismissing them isn't much to denigrate about either.

I mean, the last 2 weeks he isn't even averaging 60% or 200 yards.    So yeah, it doesn't need to be negative.  But bragging about this window of 2 games as great is just not something I'm on.  The cherry picking with Bryce is being done for a reason.  Because the actual review of him isn't really good.  He has made great strides this year but the bar was practically buried...and that aspect is distorting  where he presently is. 

I mean, I can cherry pick PJ Walker games with a scalpel.  You want great throws? You want some good play? I mean, I used to do it for fun out of boredom with this team because it was silly. 

[SOJA]

The problem is this team is so far way from competing that I don't think it really matters for next year if Bryce is the QB, if there was a viable upgrade option I'd be all for considering it but due to the capital we invested in bryce and his improved play there is no reason NOT to keep going with him and use our cap/draft capital to improve the team 

[Icege]

2 hours ago, CRA said:

I mean, the last 2 weeks he isn't even averaging 60% or 200 yards.    So yeah, it doesn't need to be negative.  But bragging about this window of 2 games as great is just not something I'm on.  The cherry picking with Bryce is being done for a reason.  Because the actual review of him isn't really good.  He has made great strides this year but the bar was practically buried...and that aspect is distorting  where he presently is. 

I mean, I can cherry pick PJ Walker games with a scalpel.  You want great throws? You want some good play? I mean, I used to do it for fun out of boredom with this team because it was silly. 

This takes me back to an earlier question I asked in-season that I never got a response to (from others): what exactly is the threshold, stat-wise?

Bryce didn't average 60% & 200yds passing the last two games, but he was a big reason why the team won one of them and gave them an opportunity to stay in the second one. Bryce was pressured on nearly 70% of his drop backs vs TB but he's expected to put up 300yds... ? Meanwhile, Chuba averaged 6.1ypc vs. Arizona on 25 carries while Bryce was 17/26 for 2 passing TDs, 1 rushing TD, no turnovers, and 68yds rushing for a 107.5 RTG/80.6 QBR... but because he only threw for 158yds in a win we don't toot the horn? The man had three total TDs for crying out loud!

[CRA]

42 minutes ago, Icege said:

This takes me back to an earlier question I asked in-season that I never got a response to (from others): what exactly is the threshold, stat-wise?

Bryce didn't average 60% & 200yds passing the last two games, but he was a big reason why the team won one of them and gave them an opportunity to stay in the second one. Bryce was pressured on nearly 70% of his drop backs vs TB but he's expected to put up 300yds... ? Meanwhile, Chuba averaged 6.1ypc vs. Arizona on 25 carries while Bryce was 17/26 for 2 passing TDs, 1 rushing TD, no turnovers, and 68yds rushing for a 107.5 RTG/80.6 QBR... but because he only threw for 158yds in a win we don't toot the horn? The man had three total TDs for crying out loud!

I think it's just people falling into 2 different discussions. 

A-some largely are fixated on what Bryce WAS vs what he IS now. 

B-some people really only care about what he is vs the field. 

So what might be noteworthy for an A discussion, but just doesn't matter to people that largely care about B.  That's me.  I mean, again, Bryce is clearly improved.  But I can't think of a single QB where the argument they are good comes down to using the last two weeks of play Bryce has done as the justification of the statement.  Not when folks are just talking about being a starting QB in the NFL and the convo not being more so about what he was. 

I mean, Spencer Rattler vs Josh Allen.  A good day for Spencer might be highlighted that he was just not bad and didn't hurt his team.   The Saints managed to win and he made about 2 solid throws in reality on the day with no negatives.  But that game would not be available for Josh Allen in a convo of if he is good, it would work against him more than anything. 

 

 

[Icege]

45 minutes ago, CRA said:

I think it's just people falling into 2 different discussions. 

A-some largely are fixated on what Bryce WAS vs what he IS now. 

B-some people really only care about what he is vs the field. 

So what might be noteworthy for an A discussion, but just doesn't matter to people that largely care about B.  That's me.  I mean, again, Bryce is clearly improved.  But I can't think of a single QB where the argument they are good comes down to using the last two weeks of play Bryce has done as the justification of the statement.  Not when folks are just talking about being a starting QB in the NFL and the convo not being more so about what he was. 

I mean, Spencer Rattler vs Josh Allen.  A good day for Spencer might be highlighted that he was just not bad and didn't hurt his team.   The Saints managed to win and he made about 2 solid throws in reality on the day with no negatives.  But that game would not be available for Josh Allen in a convo of if he is good, it would work against him more than anything. 

Josh Allen is also in his 6th season which is drastically different from a rookie QB. That's worth considering, isn't it?

[Mistuh Jones]

On 12/29/2024 at 3:32 AM, Aussie Tank said:

Short fields help with the defense Cam had. Plus Cam had better weapons just not Oline 

in what alternate dimension did Cam have weapons

[Seltzer]

51 minutes ago, Mistuh Jones said:

in what alternate dimension did Cam have weapons

You wouldn't take D'Angelo Williams, Jonathan Stewart, Greg Olsen, Ed Dickson, Steve Smith, Ted Ginn, Brandon LaFell, DJ Moore, or Curtis Samuel over the group Bryce is working with???!!

Almost every single one of those players are better than anyone Bryce has had so far... that's just objective truth.

People complained about Cam not having as many weapons as some QBs, but there was not a single year he didn't have better weapons than Bryce.

And this is coming from someone who, like most of the rest of the fanbase, thought we didnt give Cam enough help.

The Olines were dogshit some years for sure, but the idea Cam didn't have weapons compared to Bryce is just wrong.

I can't think of a single QB that has had less to work with skill positions wise than Bryce has had his 1st 2 seasons... at least we fixed the Oline this year.

[CRA]

1 hour ago, Icege said:

Josh Allen is also in his 6th season which is drastically different from a rookie QB. That's worth considering, isn't it?

That's why I am saying I think it people overall having different discussions.  Some people are fixated on what Bryce is as a 2nd year QB coming off his horrific NFL start.  Some are just talking about QB present day QB play. 

I mean if we are just discussing present day play at the QB position and what your guy is presently doing....what year they are doesn't really matter there does it? 

[Icege]

1 hour ago, Mistuh Jones said:

in what alternate dimension did Cam have weapons

2011: DWill, JStew, Olsen, Shockey, Agent 89, LaFell
2012: DWill, JStew, Olsen, Agent 89, LaFell, Tolbert
2013: DWill, JStew, Olsen, Agent 89, LaFell, Tolbert, Ginn
2014: DWill, JStew, Tolbert, Olsen, KB, Cotchery
2015: JStew, Tolbert, Olsen, KB (injured), Funchess, Ginn, Cotchery (caught it)
2016: JStew, Tolbert, Olsen, Funchess, Ginn
2017: JStew, CMC, Olsen, Funchess, Samuel
2018: CMC, Olsen, Torrey, DJ, Samuel, Funchess

[mav1234]

35 minutes ago, Seltzer said:

You wouldn't take D'Angelo Williams, Jonathan Stewart, Greg Olsen, Ed Dickson, Steve Smith, Ted Ginn, Brandon LaFell, DJ Moore, or Curtis Samuel over the group Bryce is working with???!!

Almost every single one of those players are better than anyone Bryce has had so far... that's just objective truth.

People complained about Cam not having as many weapons as some QBs, but there was not a single year he didn't have better weapons than Bryce.

And this is coming from someone who, like most of the rest of the fanbase, thought we didnt give Cam enough help.

The Olines were dogshit some years for sure, but the idea Cam didn't have weapons compared to Bryce is just wrong.

I can't think of a single QB that has had less to work with skill positions wise than Bryce has had his 1st 2 seasons... at least we fixed the Oline this year.

Cam did not have good weapons consistently, but he had a few reliable players early on. Many of those dudes you mentioned are absolutely worse than Thielen and I'd take Legette over LaFell honestly.... Anyway, Bryce needs someone other than Thielen, but all these offense comparisons always leave out the OL... Where imo this team is much stronger than virtually any time when Cam was QB.

[CRA]

1 minute ago, mav1234 said:

Cam did not have good weapons consistently, but he had a few reliable players early on. Many of those dudes you mentioned are absolutely worse than Thielen and I'd take Legette over LaFell honestly.... Anyway, Bryce needs someone other than Thielen, but all these offense comparisons always leave out the OL... Where imo this team is much stronger than virtually any time when Cam was QB.

Cam's MVP season was as meh OL, Stewart and Olsen.  

[mav1234]

3 minutes ago, Icege said:

2011: DWill, JStew, Olsen, Shockey, Agent 89, LaFell
2012: DWill, JStew, Olsen, Agent 89, LaFell, Tolbert
2013: DWill, JStew, Olsen, Agent 89, LaFell, Tolbert, Ginn
2014: DWill, JStew, Tolbert, Olsen, KB, Cotchery
2015: JStew, Tolbert, Olsen, KB (injured), Funchess, Ginn, Cotchery (caught it)
2016: JStew, Tolbert, Olsen, Funchess, Ginn
2017: JStew, CMC, Olsen, Funchess, Samuel
2018: CMC, Olsen, Torrey, DJ, Samuel, Funchess

Thielen last year and this year would have been the best or 2nd best WR on the team most of those years. Cam and Thielen would have done very well together imo, similar to how Cam and Olsen had that chemistry. Overall those Panthers teams were SO much more talented in skill positions.  But imo this OL is leagues better than the vast majority of years.