Winning pie

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, CBDellinger said:

Great time at the game with my 14 yr old son today.  Glad we got to sing sweet Caroline to close out the year.  He had a blast.  

thats all that matters if we are being honest

[ForJimmy]

11 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Because they still ended up with the 2nd pick of the draft and then got bailed out when the Jags didn’t take the best pass rusher in the draft anyways.

This win very well could end up costing us 4-6 spots in the draft depending how things close out.

Those two things are not the same

I doubt Campbell calculated all of that and decided to win lol. His job was to turn around that franchise. Getting wins helped change the culture. There really isn’t some blue chip player in this draft I’d want at 3/4 vs 7/8 anyway. 

[tukafan21]

22 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I doubt Campbell calculated all of that and decided to win lol. His job was to turn around that franchise. Getting wins helped change the culture. There really isn’t some blue chip player in this draft I’d want at 3/4 vs 7/8 anyway. 

Again, how has winning late season games over the past 5 years or so helped change our culture and turned this franchise around?  It hasn't, all it's done is hurt our draft position and caused us to possibly miss out on the players who actually would have helped turn things around.

This same group of fans who are "anti tanking" because of "building culture" are the same ones who say it every year at this time.  When are you going to realize that the best thing for the future is having the better draft picks to help build up your team?

Better players > meaningless late season wins

It's not even a matter of the specific players in this upcoming draft, it's a general principle....

If you are a franchise devoid of elite talent and won't be in a position to contend the following season, late season wins hurt more than they help.  If you are a team on the rise, with a lot of quality pieces, that's when you want to win those late season games to help you build upon that the following season.

We're the former, not the latter.

I'm not against winning late season games, I'm against it when we're in the state our franchise is currently in.  We are NOT contending next year, no matter how this offseason goes, it's just not going to happen, we still have far too many holes and not enough elite players.

I point to the 2021 and 2022 Lions as the perfect example of this.

Yes, the 2021 team had some late season wins, but they didn't hurt their draft positioning (key difference).  Then the 2022 team, that had a lot of great young pieces, started off rough at 1-6, but then 8-2 to close out the season.  They were then able to carry that over into the next season and made it to the NFC Championship.

That's where you want to win those late season games, because they had the majority of the pieces in place already.  That's just not us right now, this win isn't going to carry over into next season like it did with them.

If you can't see the difference there, then that's a you problem, not a me problem.

This win (and any others in the final few weeks) is NOT equal to the 2021 Lions late wins, as this is hurting our draft positioning and it didn't for them.  Wins/Losses aren't in a vacuum, they're all relative to the rest of the league in that given season and how it affects the standings.

Edited 5 hours ago by tukafan21

[PappyMay]

1 minute ago, tukafan21 said:

Again, how has winning late season games over the past 5 years or so helped change our culture and turned this franchise around?  It hasn't, all it's done is hurt our draft position and caused us to possibly miss out on the players who actually would have helped turn things around.

This same group of fans who are "anti tanking" because of "building culture" are the same ones who say it every year at this time.  When are you going to realize that the best thing for the future is having the better draft picks to help build up your team?

Better players > meaningless late season wins

It's not even a matter of the specific players in this upcoming draft, it's a general principle....

If you are a franchise devoid of elite talent and won't be in a position to contend the following season, late season wins hurt more than they help.  If you are a team on the rise, with a lot of quality pieces, that's when you want to win those late season games to help you build upon that the following season.

We're the former, not the latter.

I'm not against winning late season games, I'm against it when we're in the state our franchise is currently in.  We are NOT contending next year, no matter how this offseason goes, it's just not going to happen, we still have far too many holes and not enough elite players.

I point to the 2021 and 2022 Lions as the perfect example of this.

Yes, the 2021 team had some late season wins, but they didn't hurt their draft positioning (key difference).  Then the 2022 team, that had a lot of great young pieces, started off rough at 1-6, but then 8-2 to close out the season.  They were then able to carry that over into the next season and made it to the NFC Championship.

That's where you want to win those late season games, because they had the majority of the pieces in place already.  That's just not us right now, this win isn't going to carry over into next season like it did with them.

If you can't see the difference there, then that's a you problem, not a me problem.

I agree we aren’t contending for a Super Bowl , but if we hit on 2-3 signings and have a good draft I don’t see why we can’t compete for the crappy NFC South. 9-8 type season could get you there.

[woahfraze]

9 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

I point to the 2021 and 2022 Lions as the perfect example of this.

Yes, the 2021 team had some late season wins, but they didn't hurt their draft positioning (key difference).  Then the 2022 team, that had a lot of great young pieces, started off rough at 1-6, but then 8-2 to close out the season.  They were then able to carry that over into the next season and made it to the NFC Championship.

That's where you want to win those late season games, because they had the majority of the pieces in place already.  That's just not us right now, this win isn't going to carry over into next season like it did with them.

If you can't see the difference there, then that's a you problem, not a me problem.

This win (and any others in the final few weeks) is NOT equal to the 2021 Lions late wins, as this is hurting our draft positioning and it didn't for them.  Wins/Losses aren't in a vacuum, they're all relative to the rest of the league in that given season and how it affects the standings.

If you think that the Lions draft position had more to do with where they are as a franchise than Dan Campbell and the culture he has built, there’s nothing more to discuss with you. You just don’t get it. 
 

Our franchise isn’t in the toilet because we’ve ruined our draft position year after year. It’s because we haven’t had a Dan Campbell come in and implement a program and a culture of winning. 

[ForJimmy]

10 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Again, how has winning late season games over the past 5 years or so helped change our culture and turned this franchise around?  It hasn't, all it's done is hurt our draft position and caused us to possibly miss out on the players who actually would have helped turn things around.

This same group of fans who are "anti tanking" because of "building culture" are the same ones who say it every year at this time.  When are you going to realize that the best thing for the future is having the better draft picks to help build up your team?

Better players > meaningless late season wins

It's not even a matter of the specific players in this upcoming draft, it's a general principle....

If you are a franchise devoid of elite talent and won't be in a position to contend the following season, late season wins hurt more than they help.  If you are a team on the rise, with a lot of quality pieces, that's when you want to win those late season games to help you build upon that the following season.

We're the former, not the latter.

I'm not against winning late season games, I'm against it when we're in the state our franchise is currently in.  We are NOT contending next year, no matter how this offseason goes, it's just not going to happen, we still have far too many holes and not enough elite players.

I point to the 2021 and 2022 Lions as the perfect example of this.

Yes, the 2021 team had some late season wins, but they didn't hurt their draft positioning (key difference).  Then the 2022 team, that had a lot of great young pieces, started off rough at 1-6, but then 8-2 to close out the season.  They were then able to carry that over into the next season and made it to the NFC Championship.

That's where you want to win those late season games, because they had the majority of the pieces in place already.  That's just not us right now, this win isn't going to carry over into next season like it did with them.

If you can't see the difference there, then that's a you problem, not a me problem.

This win (and any others in the final few weeks) is NOT equal to the 2021 Lions late wins, as this is hurting our draft positioning and it didn't for them.  Wins/Losses aren't in a vacuum, they're all relative to the rest of the league in that given season and how it affects the standings.

I just gave you an example with the Lions. We were so a win after playing all those close games. Good teams draft well despite their draft positioning. We were having trouble closing out games, today we learned how to do it. Our defense stepped up when they needed to and our offense finished them off. A complete team win. Go watch DC’s locker room search. Zero turnovers, a strong running game, and our defense stepped up and stopped the run in the second half. He wants that to be “Panther Football.” Good teams don’t worry about where they are drafting. 

[tukafan21]

16 minutes ago, woahfraze said:

If you think that the Lions draft position had more to do with where they are as a franchise than Dan Campbell and the culture he has built, there’s nothing more to discuss with you. You just don’t get it. 
 

Our franchise isn’t in the toilet because we’ve ruined our draft position year after year. It’s because we haven’t had a Dan Campbell come in and implement a program and a culture of winning. 

If you think the Lions are who they are today solely because of Dan Campbell, then you just don't get it.

Don't get me wrong, he's a huge part of it, but...........

Amon Ra, Gibbs, Goff, Sewell, Ragnow, Hutchinson, Branch all off the top of my head are better than any player on our roster not named Derrick Brown (and some of them are better than DB anyways).  And that's before you even talk about guys like Montgomery, LaPorta, Smith, Campbell, all of whom would be starting over players on our team right now as well (and there may be others too, I don't have their full roster memorized).

Culture is great and all, and no, you can't win without it.  But more important than culture is actually having the players you need to win, and we just don't have that right now, our roster is still a mess.  

If you don't think the franchise would be in a better place if we were picking 1 draft slot better in 2020 and 2021 and have gotten Herbert and Sewell in those drafts, then you're kidding yourself.  

We could have had an offense of Herbert, CMC, Moore, and one of the game's best LT's.

But sure, that extra win in each of those seasons still give me all the good feels all these years later, who needs to have an offense with all those guys in their prime.

[tukafan21]

32 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I just gave you an example with the Lions. We were so a win after playing all those close games. Good teams draft well despite their draft positioning. We were having trouble closing out games, today we learned how to do it. Our defense stepped up when they needed to and our offense finished them off. A complete team win. Go watch DC’s locker room search. Zero turnovers, a strong running game, and our defense stepped up and stopped the run in the second half. He wants that to be “Panther Football.” Good teams don’t worry about where they are drafting. 

You're right, good teams don't worry about where they are drafting.

The problem with that... WE ARE NOT A GOOD TEAM

We have a solid OL, we have a good RB in Hubbard, we have an elite DT in Brown, and we have a possibly elite CB in Horn if he can continue to stay healthy.  Outside of those players, right now, who do you see on this roster that has a shot at being a Pro Bowl caliber player in the next few years?  

This roster is so void of high end talent that saying things like "good teams don't worry about where they are drafting" is one of the more asinine statements I've heard on here in a while.

[Jon Snow]

I'm loving the angst a Panthers win cause some of you armchair GMs. 

[ForJimmy]

12 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

You're right, good teams don't worry about where they are drafting.

The problem with that... WE ARE NOT A GOOD TEAM

We have a solid OL, we have a good RB in Hubbard, we have an elite DT in Brown, and we have a possibly elite CB in Horn if he can continue to stay healthy.  Outside of those players, right now, who do you see on this roster that has a shot at being a Pro Bowl caliber player in the next few years?  

This roster is so void of high end talent that saying things like "good teams don't worry about where they are drafting" is one of the more asinine statements I've heard on here in a while.

So bad teams should intentionally not win games that are winnable to get a better draft position? You can’t expect players on that team to be ok with this. They want to win, they want to look as good as possible to make as much money as possible. If we want to be a good team the first step is to have the good team mindset and not throw games for a better pick. I’m sorry but that is nonsense to me. 

[woahfraze]

7 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Amon Ra, Gibbs, Goff, Sewell, Ragnow, Hutchinson, Branch all off the top of my head are better than any player on our roster not named Derrick Brown (and some of them are better than DB anyways).  And that's before you even talk about guys like Montgomery, LaPorta, Smith, Campbell, all of whom would be starting over players on our team right now as well (and there may be others too, I don't have their full roster memorized).

I’m not saying culture is all that matters. But you just named:

A 4th round pick (Amon Ra St Brown)

Two 2nd round picks (LaPorta and Branch)

The 20th overall pick (Ragnow)

The 18th overall pick (Campbell)

The 12th overall pick (Gibbs)

The 7th overall pick (Sewell)

The 2nd overall pick (Hutchinson)

Two free agency signing (Montgomery and Smith)

A player obtained in a trade (Goff)

So only two players (Sewell and Hutchinson) where is losing ground in draft position from picking ~5 to ~10 would have mattered at all. All the rest were either the front office making the right choices with their draft selections or bring in veterans who fit what the staff wanted to do schematically, or the staff developing those players (FYI, it’s certainly a combination of those two things). 

 

 

[ForJimmy]

9 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

I'm loving the angst a Panthers win cause some of you armchair GMs. 

It’s so crazy. If we had a shot for pick 1 and there was some generational player there then yeah maybe I could get behind the draft position argument. I’d say most GMs and coaches aren’t diving into the draft right now. They are trying to win games. 

[tukafan21]

6 minutes ago, Jon Snow said:

I'm loving the angst a Panthers win cause some of you armchair GMs. 

Hey guys, remember when we won those meaningless games in 2010 and it cost us the #1 pick and the chance to draft Cam?

Oh.... right

I get that's more of an extreme example because it got us a HOF caliber QB.  But it's the general concept, you want to win late season games when you have the pieces in place to make a run the next season, we currently are not in that place.

Herbert and Sewell are the ones I point to so much, because we literally lost out on 2 franchise different makers by 1 draft slot.  Give us those two players while we still have CMC, Moore, and the rest of the picks we gave up for Bryce, and we'd have been a legit playoff contender the last few years.

Draft position matters in the NFL more than any other sport (other than the #1 pick in the NBA in a year with a generational talent).

[tukafan21]

2 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

So bad teams should intentionally not win games that are winnable to get a better draft position? You can’t expect players on that team to be ok with this. They want to win, they want to look as good as possible to make as much money as possible. If we want to be a good team the first step is to have the good team mindset and not throw games for a better pick. I’m sorry but that is nonsense to me. 

Good freaking lord.

How many times does this have to be explained, it really is not a hard concept.

NO... players and coaches will never intentionally lose games, and fans shouldn't want them to.

But as FANS, we can hope we end up losing games because it is what is best for the franchise, even if the players and coaches are trying to win them.

Losing is not the same as tanking, they are two entirely different things, one is acceptable, one is not.