Guess the QB

[electro's horse]

1 minute ago, NAS said:

You think Thielen is a YAC weapon or something? 

Just curious. No need to get hostile  

of course we’re not arguing about what we see, just the reason for it. 

im not sure what point you’re trying to make by saying the backup qb ran the same scheme and had similar rate stats.

He just Looked much more competent doing so. 

[mav1234]

32 minutes ago, NAS said:

Exhausting because it’s true.  Coker play is the exception. Take a look at the rankings, all passing leaders get much higher YAC per completion
 

Bryce has underachieved but you can’t say the scheme and weapons have been conducive to success. I don’t think any of these QBs do much better in same circumstances 
 

 

Sanders has more than half his yards as YAC. Most teams RBs have great YAC, and Chuba is no exception. So we have 3 players with excellent YAC overall. Bryce throwing within 5 yards of the los or throwing rainbows 15 yards makes YAC impossible, and Thielen is his main target and half this board could run him down.  So, is it really our receivers?

Please note that YAC is also related to the type of offense. Burrow is ripping it and he's got a mid to low YAC.

 

[frankw]

1 hour ago, mav1234 said:

Tbf, Young started 9 games this year, not 11, and only has 54 yards total in the other 2 (Allen had like 250 in his non start in 2019). So, ya know, it's only a 1580 yard difference in four games . 

I just don't get why we can't acknowledge that regardless of extenuating circumstances our first overall pick has been largely backup level. And even that's being rather kind.

Last year the OL was the biggest issue and this year after investing an exorbitant amount of money in the interior OL we are near bottom of the league in sacks given up. Regardless of the WR situation we should not be 29 out of 32 in passing yards per game. We are also on coaching staff #2. Now nearing the end of his second season you have to look at the common thread at the center of it all. That's Bryce Young.

Edited 8 hours ago by frankw

[electro's horse]

At the end of the day this would be an interesting argument if Bryce wasn’t also at or near the bottom of the league in almost every other stat you can find.

[mav1234]

33 minutes ago, frankw said:

I just don't get why we can't acknowledge that regardless of extenuating circumstances our first overall pick has been largely backup level. And even that's being rather kind.

Last year the OL was the biggest issue and this year after investing an exorbitant amount of money in the interior OL we are near bottom of the league in sacks given up. Regardless of the WR situation we should not be 29 out of 32 in passing yards per game. We are also on coaching staff #2. Now nearing the end of his second season you have to look at the common thread at the center of it all. That's Bryce Young.

Yeah it is being kind, lol, at least if we consider his full career to date. But I think "backup level" is a realistic expectation for him now.

I'd love for nothing more than for Bryce Young to light it up the next 3 weeks and give us all something to hope for come 2025, even if that means hurting our draft position a little. Even still, we can't afford to spend another offseason exclusively propping him up. Invest in defense. Bring in QB competition.

[frankw]

54 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

Yeah it is being kind, lol, at least if we consider his full career to date. But I think "backup level" is a realistic expectation for him now.

I'd love for nothing more than for Bryce Young to light it up the next 3 weeks and give us all something to hope for come 2025, even if that means hurting our draft position a little. Even still, we can't afford to spend another offseason exclusively propping him up. Invest in defense. Bring in QB competition.

I hear you brother. But I am now past the point of wanting to see that this season. We're dead in the water. We're not winning anything for the culture going forward from here on out in the remaining games. We have so many needs. I'm not saying tank or any nonsense like that. I'm just saying it doesn't matter one iota anymore what he looks like when there's nothing left to play for anyways. Let the young guys get their reps these last few weeks and head into the offseason with a lengthy list of issues to address. Beginning with the QB room.

[GoobyPls]

That’s the Sean Payton offense 

[Navy_football]

4 hours ago, mav1234 said:

The whole "Panthers don't have YAC guys" is a bit exhausting in a week where Coker has like 50 on one play. Sanders has half his yards from YAC this year. Bryce and/or our scheme isn't putting those guys in position to get YAC. Very often, the softballs young throws allows defenders to close. Some of that will get better with better timing tho, some of it won't because the coverages teams play as they aren't afraid of him deep. Some of it is Adam Thielen is our leading target and he can't get YAC at all anymore.

Sorry I don't agree. I'm really not on the "defend Bryce Young" train, but this team's skilled players are not like the rest of the NFL when it comes to YAC. Did you watch the game last night? Good example of what you should expect from your skilled guys after the catch. On both teams. We are happy when a guy breaks one tackle and gets an extra 5-10 yards. Meanwhile every other team has multiple guys breaking multiple tackles for an extra 20+ all day. This has to get better. Doesn't matter who the QB is. Unless the Panthers find another Cam or Lamar.

DBs fear and respect fast receivers way more than a strong armed QB. They're not gonna give cushion to a receiver they can outrun even if Mahomes was throwing him the ball. Now if you have a guy out there running low 4.3s or better, that's when it's time to respect the deep ball.

[mav1234]

46 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

Sorry I don't agree. I'm really not on the "defend Bryce Young" train, but this team's skilled players are not like the rest of the NFL when it comes to YAC. Did you watch the game last night? Good example of what you should expect from your skilled guys after the catch. On both teams. We are happy when a guy breaks one tackle and gets an extra 5-10 yards. Meanwhile every other team has multiple guys breaking multiple tackles for an extra 20+ all day. This has to get better. Doesn't matter who the QB is. Unless the Panthers find another Cam or Lamar.

DBs fear and respect fast receivers way more than a strong armed QB. They're not gonna give cushion to a receiver they can outrun even if Mahomes was throwing him the ball. Now if you have a guy out there running low 4.3s or better, that's when it's time to respect the deep ball.

So yes we could definitely do better in our receiving group.  And yes, the Panthers are among the last in the league in YAC, but both Coker and Sanders have a lot of YAC. Sanders and Coker are both pretty high up on YAC for their respective positions. So why are we so low? 1) They aren't Bryce's favorite targets - that is XL and Thielen.  To say their YAC is low is an understatement, lol. 2) They've both been a bit injured. 3) Our offense is not really designed around the 'easy' YAC Plays, in part because, IMO, Bryce just can't throw some of those balls, and because we can't seem to get the screen game right. 

As to every other team... I mean in terms of league rankings, the Eagles, 49ers, and Vikings are all in the same area of YAC as the Panthers. And compared to the 49ers and Vikings, we also have ~500+ less air yards than they do. 

I don't think all of our problems are BY based, but I think if you get him some YAC master, that player will be far less productive with YAC here than they were wherever they came from.

[Navy_football]

51 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

So yes we could definitely do better in our receiving group.  And yes, the Panthers are among the last in the league in YAC, but both Coker and Sanders have a lot of YAC. Sanders and Coker are both pretty high up on YAC for their respective positions. So why are we so low? 1) They aren't Bryce's favorite targets - that is XL and Thielen.  To say their YAC is low is an understatement, lol. 2) They've both been a bit injured. 3) Our offense is not really designed around the 'easy' YAC Plays, in part because, IMO, Bryce just can't throw some of those balls, and because we can't seem to get the screen game right. 

As to every other team... I mean in terms of league rankings, the Eagles, 49ers, and Vikings are all in the same area of YAC as the Panthers. And compared to the 49ers and Vikings, we also have ~500+ less air yards than they do. 

I don't think all of our problems are BY based, but I think if you get him some YAC master, that player will be far less productive with YAC here than they were wherever they came from.

I'm honestly surprised Coker and Sanders are high on YAC stats. Is that an average or a total number? Seems our receivers only run after the catch on broken plays by the defense. This particular issue has very little to do with Bryce as it was consistent when Dalton played as well. Also think Canales has been the best OC we've had in awhile with scheming guys open. They still don't really do anything with it. Just no ability to make guys miss or run away from defenders. It's pretty sad when Bryce Young is the most elusive player on your offense. He ain't remotely a Cam or Lamar or even Mahomes.

Agree that Bryce needs to put more velocity on some of his passes though. I think he generally takes some off because he's trying to throw with such anticipation. You can't frill a pass before a guy even gets to his break, so I get that. Less room for error. But there are plenty of times he just nonchalantly passes the ball when he should be rifling it in. He can do it. He does do it. Just not every time he needs to. 

[mav1234]

10 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

I'm honestly surprised Coker and Sanders are high on YAC stats. Is that an average or a total number? Seems our receivers only run after the catch on broken plays by the defense. This particular issue has very little to do with Bryce as it was consistent when Dalton played as well. Also think Canales has been the best OC we've had in awhile with scheming guys open. They still don't really do anything with it. Just no ability to make guys miss or run away from defenders. It's pretty sad when Bryce Young is the most elusive player on your offense. He ain't remotely a Cam or Lamar or even Mahomes.

Agree that Bryce needs to put more velocity on some of his passes though. I think he generally takes some off because he's trying to throw with such anticipation. You can't frill a pass before a guy even gets to his break, so I get that. Less room for error. But there are plenty of times he just nonchalantly passes the ball when he should be rifling it in. He can do it. He does do it. Just not every time he needs to. 

Honestly we really needed a shifty back to help with YAC. Chuba is good as an RB but he just isn't really good out of the back field.

I agree with most of what you've said re: receivers, but I do think it's scheme heavily. As to YAC numbers, I was looking at it per reception (so yeah, average )... Because Coker hasn't had enough receptions yet I had to turn off filtering which meant it ranked him across everyone catching a ball all year. Those stats are *dominated* by RBs, and Coker is around 100 overall across all RBs, TEs, and WRs at 7 YAC/r... Which is pretty good for a wideout, because it includes rarely used players, etc. Sanders is ~6 YAC/r which is again pretty good for a TE.  If all our receivers had their YAC production, we'd have a ton more passing yards.

I think Canales schemes players open, but not so much so wide open they can make a lot of YAC related plays.

[NAS]

20 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

I'm honestly surprised Coker and Sanders are high on YAC stats. Is that an average or a total number? Seems our receivers only run after the catch on broken plays by the defense. This particular issue has very little to do with Bryce as it was consistent when Dalton played as well. Also think Canales has been the best OC we've had in awhile with scheming guys open. They still don't really do anything with it. Just no ability to make guys miss or run away from defenders. It's pretty sad when Bryce Young is the most elusive player on your offense. He ain't remotely a Cam or Lamar or even Mahomes.

Coker leads the team in YAC, JT is average, but all others are relatively poor 

Edited 3 hours ago by NAS

[Navy_football]

16 minutes ago, NAS said:

Coker leads the team in YAC, JT is average, but all others are relatively poor 

Crazy the slowest (combine 40 time) has the highest Y/R and YAC. Some guys just know how to make guys miss and some have all the athleticism but have no idea how to shake a defender. 

[NAS]

11 minutes ago, Navy_football said:

Crazy the slowest (combine 40 time) has the highest Y/R and YAC. Some guys just know how to make guys miss and some have all the athleticism but have no idea how to shake a defender. 

100% there’s underwear olympics and there’s football speed. Jerry Rice’s 40 yd dash was reportedly 4.71 but he cooked defensive backs and got behind them regularly. 
 

Coker ran a 4.57 which is decent  

Edited 3 hours ago by NAS