Has this game changed feelings about Young?

[Khyber53]

No, he's still in the learning curve. And these kinds of games are going to happen. But if we don't want to ever have the guy that those prior games hinted at, then we bench him. I think you keep rolling the dice on the very young man and keep building a good team around him.

That offensive line needs some help. We may need another swing at a receiver.

WE DEFINITELY NEED HELP ON DEFENSE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO CAN FRIKKIN' TACKLE THAT AREN'T DBs.

Right now, crazy as it might sound, Young isn't high on the list of problems we have. 

[MHS831]

9 minutes ago, mav1234 said:

Ehh 2 of our OL had 50-60s, which is not great comparatively but Bryce was a 39 and second lowest graded player on offense...

I do not understand why we weren't chipping edges etc, and we ran empty what seemed like far too often. I think the idea was to beat the rush with quick routes but man, several times rushers were practically unblocked...

Second bold is my concern. He did not read the field at all. He honestly was not reading the field well vs the Eagles either, tho he still was playing much better there.

Technically, Moton was the highest rated OL with a 60, while Damien Lewis was second with a 56 down through Cade with a 47.   I very much agree with your points--and the lack of adjustment concerns me.  It is like we are a one-trick pony and if you can take the carrot away, we go limp.

This may sound crazy, but I think we could be doing a lot more with the TE position-I see other teams with established TEs lining up at wing and pulling on power, for example.  I see them in the backfield.  I see them blocking and releasing (chipping too) to create a checkdown--

Edited yesterday at 03:08 PM by MHS831

[PleaseCutStewart]

I've been a big Bryce basher, but no. He looked good the previous few weeks against good defenses and had a stinker today (along with pretty much every other Panther on the field). Oline 100% failed him today (probably the first game I can say that this year) and it wasn't due to his taking 10 step dropbacks like he did last year.

Now we get to see if he has the mental toughness to move on and play better the rest of the season (but still hopefully lose so we can get a top 4 pick)

[mav1234]

40 minutes ago, MHS831 said:

Technically, Moton was the highest rated OL with a 60, while Damien Lewis was second with a 56 down through Cade with a 47.   I very much agree with your points--and the lack of adjustment concerns me.  It is like we are a one-trick pony and if you can take the carrot away, we go limp.

This may sound crazy, but I think we could be doing a lot more with the TE position-I see other teams with established TEs lining up at wing and pulling on power, for example.  I see them in the backfield.  I see them blocking and releasing (chipping too) to create a checkdown--

Yup.  We have seen some of these TE routes when Tremble is in, I'd be curious why we don't with Sanders. In general I think we need to find ways to get the ball into his (and Coker's) hands as much as possible 

[MHS831]

45 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

No, he's still in the learning curve. And these kinds of games are going to happen. But if we don't want to ever have the guy that those prior games hinted at, then we bench him. I think you keep rolling the dice on the very young man and keep building a good team around him.

That offensive line needs some help. We may need another swing at a receiver.

WE DEFINITELY NEED HELP ON DEFENSE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO CAN FRIKKIN' TACKLE THAT AREN'T DBs.

Right now, crazy as it might sound, Young isn't high on the list of problems we have. 

On defense from last year, we lose Burns then Brown.  Thompson is now probably done, and we misused Chinn, in my opinion, who is probably an average S in Washington now.  I hoped to see development from Barno (injury) and Wonnum (injury until recently) and DJ Johnson, who has flashed at times.  Clowney?  His play has been decent to good, actually, but he is past the point of attracting the attention of the offensive coordinator, imo.  Our DL is scary right now--time to move on from all of them--PFF scores are scary:  A Robinson 54.6, Shy Tuttle 43.1, LaBryan Ray 38.2.  Jewell?  A 58.4 (which sounds about right) and Wallace is rated at 56.0.   DJ Johnson is a 58.0.  Barno (27 snaps, 2 pressures) is rated at 66.1 (small sample size, but encouraging). Safeties Jordan Fuller 52.1 and Xavier Woods is at 63.0.  

I mean, if get me some new shoes and limber up a bit, I might have a 100 yard rushing day against this defense.

Analysis:  Wonnum (61.9) and Barno have shown promise, and Jewell and Wallace might see improved numbers if the players in front of them were better, but we need an edge opposite Wonnum, a better S than Fuller, and a run stuffing ILB.  We need a 3T and 2 DTs. We should try to re-sign Jackson.  

Needs (In my opinion on Dec 17, 2024):

• Edge
• Defensive Tackle (how about a NT type at about 330 lbs?)
• Defensive End (get rid of the Bama boys)
• Safety 
• Inside Linebacker
• Corner

Edited yesterday at 03:50 PM by MHS831

[Bear Hands]

19 hours ago, mav1234 said:

I don't blame people for not *giving up* on Young after this game, but realistically, this is much more similar to his career to date than the games vs KC and TB (imo his 2 best) were. That is what concerns me. This wasn't just a ho-hum meh kind of day, which tbh I was expecting (and how i'd describe NO and NYG), but it was a "wheels fall off, Young fugs the team over" kind of day (his opening drive fumble and opening half fumble absolutely ruined our chances of being competitive).  He wasn't alone in his sucking, no, but unlike, say, our OL which has played near the top of the league all year - he simply 'returned to form.'

If the lows are this low, his highs just aren't worth leaning / building a team around. Because although I really liked what he did vs TB and KC (and to an extent the Eagles, but I think we saw some cracks there too), he is ultimately severely limited in terms of physical talent and has yet to really deliver a total performance of a game.

Not saying cut him. I think he'd probably be a pretty good backup, tbh.  But let's start looking to rebuild our QB room this season and have a real competition in the offseason.

This is a fair assessment of the situation from my view.

We got a glimpse of him at his near best, and saw what happens when he slips back. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the right type of thinking, considering lows vs highs relative to ultimate goals.

If his highs still can’t quite produce big wins, and everything needs to be damn near perfect, then you’re needing too much from him as a limited player.  Get him in the right environment, sure, I guarantee there could be a coach+team combo where he could make a 10-7/11-6 type run with for a season or two. But that’s best case, and is all of this worth it to get there? I say we need to keep rolling the dice.

Given our timeline, team around him, and what he needs to do, it doesn’t align and isn’t worth settling for, and at the least need competition.

The ceiling is not a game changer. We can’t coddle him this offseason and not strongly consider other avenues.

[mrcompletely11]

1 minute ago, Bear Hands said:

This is a fair assessment of the situation from my view.

We got a glimpse of him at his near best, and saw what happens when he slips back. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the right type of thinking, considering lows vs highs relative to ultimate goals.

If his highs still can’t quite produce big wins, and everything needs to be damn near perfect, then you’re needing too much from him as a limited player.  Get him in the right environment, sure, I guarantee there could be a coach+team combo where he could make a 10-7/11-6 type run with for a season or two. But that’s best case, and is all of this worth it to get there? I say we need to keep rolling the dice.

Given our timeline, team around him, and what he needs to do, it doesn’t align and isn’t worth settling for, and at the least need competition.

The ceiling is not a game changer. We can’t coddle him this offseason and not strongly consider other avenues.

If thats his "near best" then thats like a 7-8 win type qb.  If that.

[Khyber53]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

Technically, Moton was the highest rated OL with a 60, while Damien Lewis was second with a 56 down through Cade with a 47.   I very much agree with your points--and the lack of adjustment concerns me.  It is like we are a one-trick pony and if you can take the carrot away, we go limp.

This may sound crazy, but I think we could be doing a lot more with the TE position-I see other teams with established TEs lining up at wing and pulling on power, for example.  I see them in the backfield.  I see them blocking and releasing (chipping too) to create a checkdown--

Or reinstitute a full back and really go with a power running game to make the most of Chuba and whoever his stablemate will be. Along with more effort on using the TEs.

 

Edited yesterday at 04:29 PM by Khyber53

[bandu]

2 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

No, he's still in the learning curve. And these kinds of games are going to happen. But if we don't want to ever have the guy that those prior games hinted at, then we bench him. I think you keep rolling the dice on the very young man and keep building a good team around him.

That offensive line needs some help. We may need another swing at a receiver.

WE DEFINITELY NEED HELP ON DEFENSE, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE WHO CAN FRIKKIN' TACKLE THAT AREN'T DBs.

Right now, crazy as it might sound, Young isn't high on the list of problems we have. 

oh my goodness gracious Bryce Young is in fact the biggest problem we have  right now

did you ever watch the Houston Texans before they drafted CJ Stroud a couple years ago or even the Washington Commanders last year prior to drafting Jayden Daniels . or let's try another  example one you are probably more familiar with was the alst time the Panthers were in the Superbowl &  Cam Newtin had Mike Remmers starting at RT & then Michael Oher at LT & then on top of that Cam also had one of if not the least talented WR corps in the NFL & even with a bad supporting cast of players on offense Cam Newton was still  able to win the MVP that same year & almost win the Superbowl

...just saying 

 

Edited yesterday at 05:15 PM by bandu

[Khyber53]

21 minutes ago, bandu said:

oh my goodness gracious Bryce Young is in fact the biggest problem we have  right now

did you ever watch the Houston Texans before they drafted CJ Stroud a couple years ago or even the Washington Commanders last year prior to drafting Jayden Daniels . or let's try another  example one you are probably more familiar with was the alst time the Panthers were in the Superbowl &  Cam Newtin had Mike Remmers starting at RT & then Michael Oher at LT & then on top of that Cam also had one of if not the least talented WR corps in the NFL & even with a bad supporting cast of players on offense Cam Newton was still  able to win the MVP that same year & almost win the Superbowl

...just saying 

 

Psst... we also had a great defense back then... helps any QB out immensely. Great defenses give QBs more shots. 

 

[frankw]

1 minute ago, Khyber53 said:

Psst... we also had a great defense back then... helps any QB out immensely. Great defenses give QBs more shots. 

 

Cam Newton looked like a man amongst boys even when our defense was poo in 2011.

But it needs to be said that the current defense is not as bad as some people are making it out to be. They have put this offense in position to win. But even if we did have a "great" defense it would still be tough to overcome 4 turnovers. That's what this discussion has been about.

[Captroop]

1 hour ago, MHS831 said:

Needs (In my opinion on Dec 17, 2024):

• Edge
• Defensive Tackle (how about a NT type at about 330 lbs?)
• Defensive End (get rid of the Bama boys)
• Safety 
• Inside Linebacker
• Corner

I'd bump ILB up higher. S and CB can be easily plugged in via free agency. And I'm so gun-shy about spending draft capital on CBs after the experience with Horn. He's a stud when healthy, but we spent the bulk of his rookie contract with him on IR, and soon we won't be able to afford him. I think I'd much rather pick up a 4th or 5th year man with a proven track record of availability.

The inside of the defensive line, just like the inside of the offensive line is what it all hinges on. So a solid DT and a field general MLB are thing we've sorely missed since the KK/Star/Luke years.

Frankly, I think EDGE is overvalued these days. Sure, sacks are nice, but unless you're causing turnovers, it's just one play. And 2nd and 14 doesn't mean dick if you then give up a couple of 10 yard runs.

Shut down the run, and the QB pressures will follow. It's basically exactly what Dallas did to us.

[bandu]

39 minutes ago, Khyber53 said:

Psst... we also had a great defense back then... helps any QB out immensely. Great defenses give QBs more shots. 

 

alrighty then I will just have to agree to disagree that  Qb is way more valuable to the overall success of a team than a  cornerback  or edge or LB or anyone on the defensive side of the ball

& no one trades up to #1 overall pick to draft a corner back or edge it's always a Qb tbecause that's the one player who can have the biggest impact to the overall success of the team  & 9 out of 10 times if you have a really bad Qb you are going to also have a really bad team

when you bet there is no one player that moves the line as much as a Qb because once again he is the most important player on the team

...just saying we need a Qb is all

Edited yesterday at 06:10 PM by bandu

[mav1234]

3 hours ago, Khyber53 said:

 

Right now, crazy as it might sound, Young isn't high on the list of problems we have. 

I mean...

He may not be a problem, but when is he ever the solution?  I think that's my concern...

And you'd be right about 3 of the last 4 games... What about over the last 20 Bryce started?