How to sign your core group and take advantage of the uncapped year

[panthers55]

And that's where ya messed up.

If you give him a salary of $650K in 2011, you can only raise it another 30% each subsequent year as it must be assumed, as there is no new CBA in place, that those years will be uncapped years as well. This means that at most they can pay him $845K in 2012, $1.1 million in 2013, $1.43 in 2014 and $1.86 million in 2015. To make that a fair market deal of 5 years, $30 million, you'd have to offer about $24 million or so to make it right. You can mumbo jumbo that $24 million any way you'd like, but it will still be $24 million you owe (for an example see Delhomme, Jake). Granted I might be off a few hundred thousand but the general principle is still there.

But clearly you and the Jets have it all figured out. That's why they went ahead and wrapped up their young talented Center Nick Mangold unlike that blockhead Hurney.

Oh.

Wait.

Well at least they've extended their talented young RFA LB David Harris unlike that fuddy duddy Richardson.

Oh.

Wait.

Not from what I have read. You are wrong beyond 2011. The 30% rule only applies to 2010 and 2011 when there is an uncapped year and a CBA agreement . 2012 and beyond don't apply since there is no CBA agreement after 2011. In fact without a new CBA there are no rules at all. I have never read a provision which says until there is a new CBA the 2010 rules apply in pertuity. There you go making things up again in a vain attempt to win at all costs. You went all the way down the road with your numbers and your basic concept was faulty. But to satisfy you concern you simply give him a salary of 800000 in 2011 and give the 4 million in a roster bonus if a new CBA gets done. Otherwise you defer it to 2012 and it still gets spread out over several years. That way with a lockout you pay him little to nothing and if they play you pay like before.

Easy.

And there you go with the off the wall comparisons that are out in left field.

[Delhommey]

Not from what I have read. You are wrong. The 30% rule only applies to 2010 when there is an uncapped year. 2011 and beyond don't apply since there is no CBA agreement after 2010. In fact without a new CBA there are no rules at all. I have never read a provision which says until there is a new CBA the 2010 rules apply in pertuity. There you go making things up again in a vain attempt to win at all costs. You went all the way down the road with your numbers and your basic concept was totally faulty.

And there you go with the off the wall comparisons that are out in left field.

Yes.

But the "30 percent rule" restricts the size and growth of base salaries - but not signing bonuses - in renegotiated contract extensions for them and players like them this year. The rule is particularly hard-hitting because their rookie contracts paid them relatively low base salaries, putting them at a negotiating disadvantage since a player's 2009 base salary and limited other earnings are the starting point for determining how much base pay they can earn in an extension.

For instance, Kalil's 2009 figure is $510,000, which allows for a 30 percent raise of $153,000, setting that as the fixed amount for his annual base pay raises throughout the new deal.

A market-rate, five-year, $30 million deal for Kalil beginning at a $663,000 base salary this season would top out at a $1.275 million base in 2014. His base pay would total $4.845million for the life of the deal, requiring the Panthers to give him a signing bonus of more than $25million to get to the market rate.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2010/04/02/1350953/williams-kalil-in-payday-limbo.html

Completely baseless.

But there's a loophole. NFL director of corporate communications Dan Masonson has confirmed for us that signing bonuses won't count toward the 30 percent rule. Still, it means that the bulk of a player's compensation would have to be funneled to him via a signing bonus, with limited base salaries in future years. While the player might be fine with that in 2010, the player might feel a lot differently in the out years of the deal.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/02/21/30-percent-rule-still-looms-over-uncapped-year/

Where on Earth did I come up with this all?

BTW, to lessen your confusion, Marshall was an RFA meaning this didn't apply to him.

[Delhommey]

And I was slightly incorrect about it going 30% each year, I'll admit. It's 30% of the starting year, added every year.

[Sandy Claws]

I am saying there is loophole we can use which Allen has used before, is using now and can use in the future and likely will. it is something Hurney could and should use as we won't be able to afford our young core if we wait to shoulder the burden until next year when the signing bonuses will be twice as many. Unless we don't plan to keep many of our supposed core. No is blaming Hurney for not using it since the decision isn't his but Richardson. I am simply pointing out how we could do it to our advantage. Why is that so threatening or intimidating to you that you go on and on with tangential arguments. It seems you are no longer trying to discuss the merits of the concept and just trying to argue to win some kind of pissing contest.

What you are assuming and Allen is banking on is that the individual player cap hits will continue to be calculated in the same manner as they have in the past. That may not be the case. They could add a clause to Article XXIV stating that all bonuses paid in uncapped years will be prorated over the life of the contract.

[Sandy Claws]

That is a definite possibility and would be a risk. Obviously one that he thinks it worth it. I expect he knows things we might not.

It's not a matter of if Allen knows things that we don't. It's a question of whether he knows things that Richardson and Hurney do not. With Richardson being part of the owners group negotiating with the NFLPA, I doubt that Allen knows more about what to expect from a new CBA than Jerry does.

[Sandy Claws]

Not from what I have read. You are wrong beyond 2011. The 30% rule only applies to 2010 and 2011 when there is an uncapped year and a CBA agreement . 2012 and beyond don't apply since there is no CBA agreement after 2011. In fact without a new CBA there are no rules at all. I have never read a provision which says until there is a new CBA the 2010 rules apply in pertuity. There you go making things up again in a vain attempt to win at all costs. You went all the way down the road with your numbers and your basic concept was faulty. But to satisfy you concern you simply give him a salary of 800000 in 2011 and give the 4 million in a roster bonus if a new CBA gets done. Otherwise you defer it to 2012 and it still gets spread out over several years. That way with a lockout you pay him little to nothing and if they play you pay like before.

Easy.

And there you go with the off the wall comparisons that are out in left field.

The 30 % rule will apply to contracts negotiated during the period when the CBA is valid. It doesn't matter how long the contract is for, it still would have to comply.

[carolinanimal]

P55 i have asked the same question before. how will we lock up all our young core? to me it is simple. do you lock up the upcoming 10 or so contracts now while you can dump huge amounts of there salary or do you wait until next year if a cap is reinstated and lose some of our so called "young core".

beason, moore, kalil, davis both dts. dwill marshall. all these guys will need new contracts next year. can we sign them all? have we ever signed that many guys in one season? oh almost forgot any rookies we have the year especially first round and 2 round picks.

[riddel]

This is a great thread...

I started to buy in for a minute to the Redskins knowing what they were doing theory....then I remembered who we were talking about and decided.....nah!

[panthers55]

The 30 % rule will apply to contracts negotiated during the period when the CBA is valid. It doesn't matter how long the contract is for, it still would have to comply.

I had read that in an article that the 30% rule applied to only 2011 and 2012 but went back to NFl.com and read the CBA agreement and you are correct. Apparently it is superceded by any new agreement but applies until a new agreement is reached.

[Delhommey]

Or the NFL director of communications and I are just making stuff up again in a vain attempt to win at all costs...

[Sandy Claws]

I had read that in an article that the 30% rule applied to only 2011 and 2012 but went back to NFl.com and read the CBA agreement and you are correct. Apparently it is superceded by any new agreement but applies until a new agreement is reached.

It also states that the 30% increase is based on the base salary for the year prior to the uncapped year, 2009 in this case. The examples that you point to on the Skins were veteran players that had higher base salaries in 2009 (5 mill for Hall and 6 mill for fat Albert). Getting those guys to accept a long term deal with 30% increases annually based on that would be much easier than quality guys like Kalil taking annual increases of 30% of 460K. You'd have to give a massive signing bonus to ensure he's compensated at the going rate 4 years out, at least that's what i would expect as his agent.

[Delhommey]

Now that we're somewhat near reality, I'll come back to this question: What young core players have the Redskins signed taking advantage of this uncapped year?

[cookinbrak]

This is a great thread...

I started to buy in for a minute to the Redskins knowing what they were doing theory....then I remembered who we were talking about and decided.....nah!

The Redskins have always been able to rearrange numbers to their advantage- how many times have we said "How can they afford that without going into cap hell?"- but they have to pay for it every 3-4 years.

[panthers55]

And I was slightly incorrect about it going 30% each year, I'll admit. It's 30% of the starting year, added every year.

like I said in my post I had not read that. In fact another article I did read said it would not apply after 2012. But after reading the CBA agreement posted on NFL.com you are correct the base salary can't rise more than 30% from year to year and it doesn't matter how long the contract is. But the language says this.

Section 8. 30% Rules:

(a) No NFL Player Contract entered into in an Uncapped Year prior

to the Final League Year may provide for an annual decrease in Salary, excluding

any amount attributable to a signing bonus as defined in Section

7((iv) above, of more than 30% of the Salary of the first League Year of the

contract per year. This rule shall not apply in any Capped Year to any Player

Contract that was signed in the 1993 League Year or earlier.

( No NFL Player Contract entered into in a Capped Year and ex-

tending into the Final League Year or beyond may provide for an annual increase

in Salary, excluding any amount attributable to a signing bonus as

defined in Section 7((iv) above, of more than 30% of the Salary provided

for in the Final Capped Year, per year, either in the Final League Year or in

any subsequent League Year covered by the Player Contract. For example,

without limitation on any other applicable example, a four-year Player Contract

signed in the 2011 League Year, assuming that it is Capped, may not

provide for an annual increase of more than 30% of the 2011 League Year

Salary, excluding amounts treated as a signing bonus, in any of the three (3)

additional League Years covered by the Contract.

I am not an attorney but the language indicates that in an uncapped year a player is not subject to more than a 30% decrease based on the first year of the contract. And then it says that in a contract entered into in a capped year the salary cannot exceed a 30% increase. But it doesn't specifically say that the 30% rule applies to a contract entered in an uncapped year like 2010.

Section 9. Renegotiations and Extensions:

(a) Provided that all Salary Cap requirements are met, Player Con-

tracts for current and future years may be renegotiated and/or extended except

as follows:

(i) The contract of a Veteran Player may not be renegotiated to increase

the Salary to be paid to the player during the original terms of the

contract for a period of twelve (12) months after the player’s most recent

contract renegotiation. The first renegotiation of a Veteran Player Contract,

however, may take place at any time.

(ii) No Team and player may agree to renegotiate any term of a previously

signed Player Contract for a prior League Year.

(iii) No contract renegotiations may be done for a current season after

the last regular season game of that season.

(iv) A Player Contract signed by a Rookie may not be renegotiated except

as provided in Article XVII (Entering Player Pool), Section 4(i).( just says that the renegotiation can't be until after the second year.)

(v) As provided in Article XXI (Final Eight Plan), Sections 3 and 4.

( No Player Contract, and no contract renegotiation or extension,

may be agreed to between a Player and a Club for any term that expires prior

to the last day of a League Year. All rights by a player to terminate a Player

Contract must be exercised prior to the first day of any League Year to be

terminated.

© Any agreement to compensate a player at the minimum amount

set forth in Article XXXV for participation in an off-season workout program

or classroom instruction shall not be treated as a renegotiation of a Player

Contract. Any agreement to compensate a player for such participation

above such amount shall be treated as a renegotiation. All such agreements

shall be set forth in writing and promptly filed with the League Office.

(d) Any salary deferral agreed to by club and player which does not

affect the player’s Salary for purpose of the Salary Cap and Entering Player

Pool shall not be treated as a renegotiation.

(e) An amendment to a Player Contract that changes the terms under

which Signing Bonus is paid is a renegotiation.

So the question is are contracts negotiated in 2010 subject to the 30% rule as would be the case if we voided Kalil's last year by mutual agreement or we entered into an agreement with Davis who is not under contract right now?