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It's not just the Panthers... the NFL sucks at developing young QBs "it's a systemic problem"


rayzor
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4 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

This is only going to keep getting worse with NIL and the transfer portal the way it currently is. Now if a guy isn't getting the PT he wants right now or has an opportunity to go to a bigger higher profile program there's a good chance he's gonna transfer out to the highest bidder. College systems are probably going to get even further simplified because now you're dealing with even more years over year roster turnover. There isn't development, everything has to be focused on plug and play. But again, that's not the fault of college coaches. They're not making the rules. They're just trying to do everything they can to win college football games within the structure of the rules they're given to abide by.

Oh absolutely, it’s both good for the college game and bad for the future all at the same time.  Toss in the rule changes and inconsistency from the zebras week to week and the fundamentals will soon be a distant memory to the watered-down product they call “football”.

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5 hours ago, Mage said:

I'm not convinced that the NFL is any better or worse at developing QBs now than they were 20 years ago.  I mean I'm sure there are some developmental issues at play, just not sure it is any different than it has been.

The biggest difference IMO is that NFL teams are waaaaaaaay more willing to invest a 1st round pick into a QB now than they were 15-20 years ago.  A guy like Colin Kaepernick would probably be a top 5 pick in 2025, whereas he went in the 2nd in 2011.  Would a guy like Trey Lance go top 3 in 2010?  Hell no.  Look at Russell Wilson - he didn't go until the 3rd round.  The standard for being a 1st round QB has dropped.

So it may seem like we're seeing more high-profile busts at the position, but we're also seeing teams reach for QBs way more than they have in the past.  Someone with Anthony Richardson's college resume doesn't go in the top 3 20 years ago.  

Agreed.  

Fwiw, I think 30 years ago, Bryce young would be a 4th round pick if that.  But the changes in football allow him to put up video game numbers on a team like Alabama.  

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45 minutes ago, Davidson Deac II said:

Agreed.  

Fwiw, I think 30 years ago, Bryce young would be a 4th round pick if that.  But the changes in football allow him to put up video game numbers on a team like Alabama.  

I think the changes just led people to believe that a guy like Bruce could translate to the NFL now. Guys who lack NFL measurables have been putting up big numbers in college forever but in decades past NFL evaluators would look at them and say "great college player but it's almost certainly not gonna translate to the NFL" and they'd go on to be a mid to late round pick. But with the rule changes they see a guy like Bruce who they think checks all the boxes outside of elite physical talent and they convince themselves it can work now. Wrong. There are still very real physical prerequisites.

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2 minutes ago, Ghostofdelhomme said:

Flutie would have been a 1st rounder if he didn’t go to the USFL. Bryce may end up similar to Goff- absolutely horrific on a bad team but good with a better fit

Horrific? Goff threw for 3800 yards and 28 TDs in his second season. How's Bryce tracking?

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I'm not sure how re

9 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

Brady is wrong. College coaches' jobs are to win college football games not develop NFL players. For the past couple of decades the college game has been the driver of innovation in the game. The new "pro style offense" is basically a college offense with additional layers of complexity. It's a lot more similar to a college offense than the traditional pro style offense.

I've only seen references to college offenses being dumbed down. It's a common topic the last few years.

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No. The issue is all colleges run a read option or spread.  These kids are taught from day one to do 1 read and go.  The nfl is still pro style. The last issue is they are forced to play early when they aren’t ready. That’s your issue. The nfl needs to go to a point where they “red shirt” these guys. Give them an extra year on a guaranteed  rookie deal if you have too. They aren’t ready.  It’s that simple

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5 hours ago, rayzor said:

after reading that, i don't know if you watched the video. 

It's a plug for QB Summit. They work with all the teams and sell them on their college QBs as 1st round picks that are too young to perform at a championship level. Eisen and Palmer are large parts of the problem. Palmer would never say don't pick a 1st round QB unless the team is ready for them. He would rather teams struggle with a Bryce Young or Blaine Gabbert using their development programs for 6 to 8 years before getting any return from them.

Meanwhile, the teams that know how to work the QB position and build for championships have 2 to 3 year turnarounds while dominating the league. Palmer told the world not to study the champions.

 

5 hours ago, LinvilleGorge said:

The problem is you gotta draft them to get them though. SB caliber 28-30 year old QBs are simply not available.

You don't have to draft them. Many don't, and the ones that do will not draft them in the 1st round to develop them for 6 years.

You can have 2 to 3 of them in any offseason. The Vikings did it this year with Darnold, Mullens and Rypien. Darnold may need 1 or 2 more seasons to be ready, but he's close to leading a team to a championship game.

The Chiefs (Smith, Foles, Henne, Daniel, Wentz), Bucs (Brady, Gabbert, Mayfield), Rams (Stafford, Mayfield Wentz, Garoppolo), Eagles (Foles, Wentz), Broncos (Manning), and 49ers (Garoppolo, Mullens, Beathard, Johnson, Darnold) all did it over the past decade. 

Mahomes, Hurts, and Purdy were all plugged into teams that were built to be competitive off of the older vet QBs that made them competitive.

I keep suggesting the championship solution (Good for Walsh, Holmgren, Billick, Belichick, Gruden, Dungy, Reid, Arians, the McVays, Pederson, the Kubiaks, and the Shanahans), but everyone wants the unicorn decade long multi coach project QB while wasting away the opportunities at getting top young defensive players.

Whatever combo you want to become competitive and have the luxury of trading up for a 1st round QB. They're always available in the modern NFL and swapped between winning teams.

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3 minutes ago, CPantherKing said:

It's a plug for QB Summit. They work with all the teams and sell them on their college QBs as 1st round picks that are too young to perform at a championship level. Eisen and Palmer are large parts of the problem. Palmer would never say don't pick a 1st round QB unless the team is ready for them. He would rather teams struggle with a Bryce Young or Blaine Gabbert using their development programs for 6 to 8 years before getting any return from them.

Meanwhile, the teams that know how to work the QB position and build for championships have 2 to 3 year turnarounds while dominating the league. Palmer told the world not to study the champions.

 

You don't have to draft them. Many don't, and the ones that do will not draft them in the 1st round to develop them for 6 years.

You can have 2 to 3 of them in any offseason. The Vikings did it this year with Darnold, Mullens and Rypien. Darnold may need 1 or 2 more seasons to be ready, but he's close to leading a team to a championship game.

The Chiefs (Smith, Foles, Henne, Daniel, Wentz), Bucs (Brady, Gabbert, Mayfield), Rams (Stafford, Mayfield Wentz, Garoppolo), Eagles (Foles, Wentz), Broncos (Manning), and 49ers (Garoppolo, Mullens, Beathard, Johnson, Darnold) all did it over the past decade. 

Mahomes, Hurts, and Purdy were all plugged into teams that were built to be competitive off of the older vet QBs that made them competitive.

I keep suggesting the championship solution (Good for Walsh, Holmgren, Billick, Belichick, Gruden, Dungy, Reid, Arians, the McVays, Pederson, the Kubiaks, and the Shanahans), but everyone wants the unicorn decade long multi coach project QB while wasting away the opportunities at getting top young defensive players.

Whatever combo you want to become competitive and have the luxury of trading up for a 1st round QB. They're always available in the modern NFL and swapped between winning teams.

You named all of those guys and only one of them (Foles) ended up being a 28-30 year old SB QB and he was signed to be a backup to an elite QB and ended up getting an elite team across the finish line catching lightning in a bottle. Thanks for making my point for me.

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1 hour ago, Panthers Fan 69 said:

No. The issue is all colleges run a read option or spread.  These kids are taught from day one to do 1 read and go.  The nfl is still pro style. The last issue is they are forced to play early when they aren’t ready. That’s your issue. The nfl needs to go to a point where they “red shirt” these guys. Give them an extra year on a guaranteed  rookie deal if you have too. They aren’t ready.  It’s that simple

That's not an nfl issue it's an owner issue. The owners put pressure on the coaches to play them before they are ready. Very few if any have a vet to sit behind for at least a year to learn and adjust to the game. The Panthers would benefit from having a serviceable veteran that would allow them to sit their next rookie. Had they done that last season maybe things would look different. 

Edited by Jon Snow
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    • That's not an nfl issue it's an owner issue. The owners put pressure on the coaches to play them before they are ready. Very few if any have a vet to sit behind for at least a year to learn and adjust to the game. The Panthers would benefit from having a serviceable veteran that would allow them to sit their next rookie. Had they done that last season maybe things would look different. 
    • My dude, why do you keep doing things like this?  I don't take joy in questioning anyone else's intelligence or reading comprehension skills, but you keep doing things like things, and I can't let such asinine responses go without calling them out, it's just not in me to do that. LITERALLY in the very first sentence of the post you quoted, I straight up acknowledge and accept that you would take the QB there if you can't trade down, which in turn, is an acknowledgement of how you view them as an elite prospect. Period. There is no debating that, I literally right there in the first sentence did EXACTLY what you are claiming here that I can't do.   BEYOND any of that, you're still completely ignoring my question to you, which is a completely valid question in a discussion such as this right now, let's recap shall we........ The generic question is what to do with the #1 pick.  It's near unanimous that we use it to trade down, great, since we all agree, we can move past it in regards to the current discussion, as it's a hypothetical that requires another team's help to happen.   So we move onto the question of what we would do with the #1 pick if we have to make the selection there, great, simple, easy peasy, on the same page still. You have said you'd take a QB, I disagree, but numerous times have acknowledge you and some others feel that way (even though you bafflingly thing I haven't, disagreeing with someone isn't refusing to acknowledge their view). In the last 28 years the only positions to go #1 overall have been QB, DE, and OT.  I've clearly explained why I don't see any of those positions making sense for the Panthers, in our current state, to take in this draft, with this draft class.  Because of that, you still have to make a selection, you don't get to pass on making a pick. So I said I would take T-Mac with a full explanation (numerous times) as to why I view him as the prospect to take compared to the other options.  To which you deride and question my football intelligence solely for saying I'd take a WR #1 overall when you don't have a QB. I then ask you a simple question, which you refuse to answer solely on the basis of you saying you'd go with the QB.  You can't attack someone for saying they'd take a WR there and then refuse to answer the question of who you would take instead if you couldn't take a QB. Because there is a very real possibility that the Panthers will look at the QB's and agree with me (and many others) that there isn't a QB that is worth the risk taking at #1 overall and they end up unable to trade back and have to make a pick there and won't go with a QB because of their grades on this class.   Which again, is my question to you, in THAT scenario, who are you drafting 1st overall if it's not a QB? It's a simple question, and answering it doesn't mean you don't believe in the QB's at that spot in the slightest, or even that I'm not accepting of your views on the QB's in this class.  
    • It is primarily the fault of the NFL who chooses to use college football as a minor league.
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