With the first pick, don't draft a QB? Draft a DE? C'mon!

[CamWhoaaCam]

23 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Okay, I'm back at my computer so easier to respond to your nonsense now.........

You attack my football intelligence, but you are completely unable to look at anything in reality, you live in this vacuum where you only see letters and numbers on a sheet of paper and think you can do anything you want to do with no regards to what other teams would want to do.

You say taking a WR with the #1 pick is dumb unless you have a QB in place.

My response to that is you don't take a QB #1 overall when they aren't a good enough prospect to justify taking them there.

One is judging the player by who you think they will be at the NFL level, one is judging them by the position they play and nothing else.  People can disagree with someone's evaluation of a player, but you don't, you just look at their positions and stats in a vacuum.

You say that you control the draft if you have the #1 pick, but you don't.  You can want to make a trade all you want, but if another team doesn't want to make a trade with you, then you don't control the draft, all you control is who you can take with said #1 pick.  

The 2023 draft is a PERFECT example of this

The Bears tried to trade with the Colts and Texans before us, but neither felt it was worth giving up additional assets in a down QB draft, when they knew a QB they would be wiling to draft would fall to where they were at.  If we weren't absurdly stupid to make that trade, the odds are the Bears wouldn't have been able to make one and would have ended up taking a non QB there themselves.

We're in the same situation.  Once we signal that we want to trade the pick, it tells the world that we don't think any of the QB's are worth that pick for us, because if we did, obviously we'd draft them.

If teams KNOW we're not taking a QB, they have zero motivation to trade with us to take the QB they want, they would just target the #2 pick, knowing the QB they want would still be there.  Sure we may make a trade in the end, but since the discussion is who you would take at #1 if we have to, there's literally no point in talking about trades here, even if that's everyone preference.

You can disagree with me on my view that none of these QB's are worth taking #1, that's totally fair.  But to attack me for saying I'd take T-Mac instead is just nonsense given my view on this year's QB class.  

If I told you right now that you can't choose a QB (as again, that's my viewpoint, that none are worth it in this class there) and you can't trade back and had to take someone 1st overall... who are you taking?

Say you'd take a QB, that's fair, but attacking me for "wanting to draft a WR #1" when I've clearly stated I don't view any of the QB's as being worth taken there, is just nonsense as you can't just pass on a draft pick, you still have to take someone.

So again, I'll end it asking you the same question... Put yourself in my shoes for a second and just pretend that you agree that none of the QB's are worth the #1 pick for us.  Besides saying you'd then make a trade, as it takes two to tango, if you HAD to select someone at #1 and you were in my shoes and agree no QB is worth it, who would you take?

To me, once you remove QB from the equation, and since I don't see an elite pass rusher in this class either, it comes down to two players, T-Mac and Hunter.

So it's not about me wanting to "draft a WR #1", it's about me looking at the players I think make sense at drafting in the Top 5 in general, looking at our roster, and taking the player I think makes the most sense.  And at that point, for me, it just happened to be a WR.

It's called evaluating a situation by looking at everything involved, not just their position or stats, which is what you do.

I can't be in your shoes because if we have the #1 pick and you saying we can't trade back in definitely taking the best QB prospect.

 

I get you are down on Sanders and Ward as QB prospects, but that doesn't mean other teams are. I'm confident those 2 will likely go in the top 5. Not sure how you can't understand QBs will always get the benefit of the doubt just because the position is most valuable and most important.

 

Have you thought about if we take Tmac #1 and if Sanders or Ward go on to have a successful rookie season like Daniels or Stroud. Do you know how bad that would make us look as a franchise? Passing on a franchise QB for a WR is just crazy.

 

You can believe what you want. I just don't agree with it.

[tukafan21]

23 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

I can't be in your shoes because if we have the #1 pick and you saying we can't trade back in definitely taking the best QB prospect.

 

I get you are down on Sanders and Ward as QB prospects, but that doesn't mean other teams are. I'm confident those 2 will likely go in the top 5. Not sure how you can't understand QBs will always get the benefit of the doubt just because the position is most valuable and most important.

 

Have you thought about if we take Tmac #1 and if Sanders or Ward go on to have a successful rookie season like Daniels or Stroud. Do you know how bad that would make us look as a franchise? Passing on a franchise QB for a WR is just crazy.

 

You can believe what you want. I just don't agree with it.

My point was less about what you'd do if you have to pick #1 and can't trade back, because you've made your point, you'd take the QB.  The point was if you also didn't believe a QB was worth it there, who would you then take?

Because you keep bashing me for saying I'd take a WR #1, but if a QB or trade back isn't an option, you still have to make the draft pick, that's why i was asking who you'd take in that situation.  You can't bash me for taking a WR there if you refuse to say who you'd then take instead, whether it be Hunter, one of the DL, or something else.

And it wouldn't matter of they had a successful rookie season, the same way people disregard what Stroud did last year, because they say (and rightfully so) that if you drop Stroud on the Panthers last year, he likely severely struggles given the team that was around him.  It's just more proof that you can't view things outside a vacuum, one player succeeding somewhere else doesn't mean you made the wrong pick yourself.

You keep arguing for a QB by saying that you're taking them because of the position, NOT the player.  It's just beyond comical at this point that you can't see that.  

If the team doesn't think Sanders, Ward, or some other QB grades out to be worth the risk at #1, then it doesn't matter how they end up doing with someone else.  Because us taking them at #1 if we didn't think they were worth it, would be a completely moronic situation, it's taking a player because of their position, not their abilities.

This franchise isn't a QB away from contending.  People want to solve all of our problems with a QB pick and think it's going to turn us into contenders in Year 1.  We're in a multi year re-build that hasn't even fully kicked off yet, forcing a pick because of their position is how you compound your issues and tank that player's chances for success from the start.

Until people realize and accept that, they're going to want to keep making picks based on need, not based on the players available.  You don't build a contending team by taking risks at the top of the draft every year because of your needs with no regards to the player's NFL projections.

3 QB's went in 2023 because of their position and team need, with disregard to their draft grades.

2 of them have already been benched in Year 2 and the 3rd is having a down year themselves.

How you can't see that there is a distinct chance that is repeating itself with this draft, when we're one of those teams who is in that situation, is utterly beyond me.

Just because you need a QB and they historically get taken in the Top 5 every year, doesn't mean you need to do that in a year you don't believe there is a QB worthy of the pick.

I'm VERY down on this year's QB class as Top 5 type of picks.  If we were at say 12, with a better roster, then yea, I'd be much more on board with taking that risk.  But we can't take a huge risk on these QB's when we have as many holes as we do, with no 2nd round pick.  If we did that and we miss, this franchise will be in such despair in a year or two that it would be unimaginably worse than it is right now.

But again, that's what I keep telling you, you only view things in a vacuum, not taking all realities into consideration.  

[CamWhoaaCam]

50 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

My point was less about what you'd do if you have to pick #1 and can't trade back, because you've made your point, you'd take the QB.  The point was if you also didn't believe a QB was worth it there, who would you then take?

Because you keep bashing me for saying I'd take a WR #1, but if a QB or trade back isn't an option, you still have to make the draft pick, that's why i was asking who you'd take in that situation.  You can't bash me for taking a WR there if you refuse to say who you'd then take instead, whether it be Hunter, one of the DL, or something else.

And it wouldn't matter of they had a successful rookie season, the same way people disregard what Stroud did last year, because they say (and rightfully so) that if you drop Stroud on the Panthers last year, he likely severely struggles given the team that was around him.  It's just more proof that you can't view things outside a vacuum, one player succeeding somewhere else doesn't mean you made the wrong pick yourself.

You keep arguing for a QB by saying that you're taking them because of the position, NOT the player.  It's just beyond comical at this point that you can't see that.  

If the team doesn't think Sanders, Ward, or some other QB grades out to be worth the risk at #1, then it doesn't matter how they end up doing with someone else.  Because us taking them at #1 if we didn't think they were worth it, would be a completely moronic situation, it's taking a player because of their position, not their abilities.

This franchise isn't a QB away from contending.  People want to solve all of our problems with a QB pick and think it's going to turn us into contenders in Year 1.  We're in a multi year re-build that hasn't even fully kicked off yet, forcing a pick because of their position is how you compound your issues and tank that player's chances for success from the start.

Until people realize and accept that, they're going to want to keep making picks based on need, not based on the players available.  You don't build a contending team by taking risks at the top of the draft every year because of your needs with no regards to the player's NFL projections.

3 QB's went in 2023 because of their position and team need, with disregard to their draft grades.

2 of them have already been benched in Year 2 and the 3rd is having a down year themselves.

How you can't see that there is a distinct chance that is repeating itself with this draft, when we're one of those teams who is in that situation, is utterly beyond me.

Just because you need a QB and they historically get taken in the Top 5 every year, doesn't mean you need to do that in a year you don't believe there is a QB worthy of the pick.

I'm VERY down on this year's QB class as Top 5 type of picks.  If we were at say 12, with a better roster, then yea, I'd be much more on board with taking that risk.  But we can't take a huge risk on these QB's when we have as many holes as we do, with no 2nd round pick.  If we did that and we miss, this franchise will be in such despair in a year or two that it would be unimaginably worse than it is right now.

But again, that's what I keep telling you, you only view things in a vacuum, not taking all realities into consideration.  

You can't tell me I view things in a vacuum when you're not willing to accept that others actually view Ward/Sanders as elite QB prospects.

 

Again look in the mirror before you judge others.

[onmyown]

On 10/29/2024 at 11:47 AM, PNW_PantherMan said:

Maxx Crosby after we get him in the package for Shedeur.

Fun fact we could’ve had Crosby instead of…Will Grier. But hometown hero and all.

Another fun fact, Zod was adamantly against it. Lol

[tukafan21]

47 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

You can't tell me I view things in a vacuum when you're not willing to accept that others actually view Ward/Sanders as elite QB prospects.

 

Again look in the mirror before you judge others.

My dude, why do you keep doing things like this?  I don't take joy in questioning anyone else's intelligence or reading comprehension skills, but you keep doing things like things, and I can't let such asinine responses go without calling them out, it's just not in me to do that.

LITERALLY in the very first sentence of the post you quoted, I straight up acknowledge and accept that you would take the QB there if you can't trade down, which in turn, is an acknowledgement of how you view them as an elite prospect.

Period.

There is no debating that, I literally right there in the first sentence did EXACTLY what you are claiming here that I can't do.  

BEYOND any of that, you're still completely ignoring my question to you, which is a completely valid question in a discussion such as this right now, let's recap shall we........

The generic question is what to do with the #1 pick.  It's near unanimous that we use it to trade down, great, since we all agree, we can move past it in regards to the current discussion, as it's a hypothetical that requires another team's help to happen.  

So we move onto the question of what we would do with the #1 pick if we have to make the selection there, great, simple, easy peasy, on the same page still.

You have said you'd take a QB, I disagree, but numerous times have acknowledge you and some others feel that way (even though you bafflingly thing I haven't, disagreeing with someone isn't refusing to acknowledge their view).

In the last 28 years the only positions to go #1 overall have been QB, DE, and OT.  I've clearly explained why I don't see any of those positions making sense for the Panthers, in our current state, to take in this draft, with this draft class.  Because of that, you still have to make a selection, you don't get to pass on making a pick.

So I said I would take T-Mac with a full explanation (numerous times) as to why I view him as the prospect to take compared to the other options.  To which you deride and question my football intelligence solely for saying I'd take a WR #1 overall when you don't have a QB.

I then ask you a simple question, which you refuse to answer solely on the basis of you saying you'd go with the QB.  You can't attack someone for saying they'd take a WR there and then refuse to answer the question of who you would take instead if you couldn't take a QB.

Because there is a very real possibility that the Panthers will look at the QB's and agree with me (and many others) that there isn't a QB that is worth the risk taking at #1 overall and they end up unable to trade back and have to make a pick there and won't go with a QB because of their grades on this class.  

Which again, is my question to you, in THAT scenario, who are you drafting 1st overall if it's not a QB?

It's a simple question, and answering it doesn't mean you don't believe in the QB's at that spot in the slightest, or even that I'm not accepting of your views on the QB's in this class.

 

Edited 2 hours ago by tukafan21

[CamWhoaaCam]

Did we take over this thread?

 

I apologize people 

[tukafan21]

I just thought of an interesting comparison for what I'm arguing with taking T-Mac and how to build up to hopefully being a contender.

The mid 2000's Arizona Cardinals

In 2003 they took Anquan Boldin early in the 2nd, kinda a decent comp for Legette with style of play and being more of an elite #2 than a true outside #1 (they also took a WR in the 1st too who didn't pan out).

In 2004 they took Larry Fitzgerald #3 overall, the true outside #1.

Their QB's at the time, Jeff Blake and Josh McCown

The QB they passed on to take Fizgerald, Philip Rivers.

They were in the Super Bowl a few years later after they found their QB in Warner to slot into an already built out roster of elite weapons.

Cam, you asked how it would look if we passed on a QB who pans out for a WR, well, do you think the Cardinals regret taking Fitz over Rivers?  I highly doubt it.

Our roster is more than one offseason away from contending.  I'm not looking for the quick fix because there isn't one with the state of this franchise at the moment, I'm looking to contend for a decade.

I don't think a QB in this draft class is good enough to take 1st overall with everything else we still need.  My next preference would be an elite pass rusher, but again, I don't see one of them in this draft either.

My personal bias aside, I very honestly think T-Mac is the most can't miss offensive prospect in this draft (Hunter would be that on defense).  He is the WR we've been trying to get since we lost Smitty.  

Brooks, T-Mac, Legette, Coker/FA, Sanders would have the potential to be one of the best offensive weapon sets in the NFL.  Sure, hopefully we could hit on a superstar QB in the next draft, but even if not, if those guys pan out, with them all are in their prime together, we wouldn't need a Mahomes or Allen to contend, we'd only need to find our Jared Goff. and spend all our FA money the next couple offseason on Defense.

[tukafan21]

18 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Did we take over this thread?

 

I apologize people 

Did we take over a thread about who you'd take #1 by having a debate on who you'd take #1?

Basically you still don't want to answer my question, probably because your answer would be either T-Mac like myself, or Hunter, which taking a CB #1 overall is even crazier on the surface than what you're saying I'm stupid for in wanting a WR there.

As I've said before, it's a season without a traditional clear top pick(s).  It would be great if we could trade back if we got #1, but if not, there's nothing wrong with taking a truly elite WR and build out our roster correctly for once instead of always trying to find the quick fix and it backfiring. 

Edited 2 hours ago by tukafan21

[tukafan21]

4 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

I just thought of an interesting comparison for what I'm arguing with taking T-Mac and how to build up to hopefully being a contender.

The mid 2000's Arizona Cardinals

In 2003 they took Anquan Boldin early in the 2nd, kinda a decent comp for Legette with style of play and being more of an elite #2 than a true outside #1 (they also took a WR in the 1st too who didn't pan out).

In 2004 they took Larry Fitzgerald #3 overall, the true outside #1.

Their QB's at the time, Jeff Blake and Josh McCown

The QB they passed on to take Fizgerald, Philip Rivers.

They were in the Super Bowl a few years later after they found their QB in Warner to slot into an already built out roster of elite weapons.

Cam, you asked how it would look if we passed on a QB who pans out for a WR, well, do you think the Cardinals regret taking Fitz over Rivers?  I highly doubt it.

Our roster is more than one offseason away from contending.  I'm not looking for the quick fix because there isn't one with the state of this franchise at the moment, I'm looking to contend for a decade.

I don't think a QB in this draft class is good enough to take 1st overall with everything else we still need.  My next preference would be an elite pass rusher, but again, I don't see one of them in this draft either.

My personal bias aside, I very honestly think T-Mac is the most can't miss offensive prospect in this draft (Hunter would be that on defense).  He is the WR we've been trying to get since we lost Smitty.  

Brooks, T-Mac, Legette, Coker/FA, Sanders would have the potential to be one of the best offensive weapon sets in the NFL.  Sure, hopefully we could hit on a superstar QB in the next draft, but even if not, if those guys pan out, with them all are in their prime together, we wouldn't need a Mahomes or Allen to contend, we'd only need to find our Jared Goff. and spend all our FA money the next couple offseason on Defense.

Shoot, I just thought of an even better comparison, especially considering I've always said my personal comp for T-Mac is AJ Green.

In 2011 the Bengals took AJ Green

Their QB at the time, NOBODY, as Palmer had already told them he was going to retire.

The QB's they passed on, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder. 

None of those guys panned out, but they were all liked very much in the draft process (well at least the first 2, think Ponder might have been a head scratcher at the time if I remember correctly lol)

They then took Dalton in the 2nd and had their QB/WR combo for the next decade.  Sure they never got over the hump, but they obviously don't regret doing it.

[ForJimmy]

4 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Shoot, I just thought of an even better comparison, especially considering I've always said my personal comp for T-Mac is AJ Green.

In 2011 the Bengals took AJ Green

Their QB at the time, NOBODY, as Palmer had already told them he was going to retire.

The QB's they passed on, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder. 

None of those guys panned out, but they were all liked very much in the draft process (well at least the first 2, think Ponder might have been a head scratcher at the time if I remember correctly lol)

They then took Dalton in the 2nd and had their QB/WR combo for the next decade.  Sure they never got over the hump, but they obviously don't regret doing it.

I feel like they struggled to win a playoff game… They also weren’t picking 1 when they passed on these QBs. If so they would have passed on Cam Newton in that Gabbert draft. If we some how don’t end up with the top pick then that changes everything IMO. 

[tukafan21]

21 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

I feel like they struggled to win a playoff game… They also weren’t picking 1 when they passed on these QBs. If so they would have passed on Cam Newton in that Gabbert draft. If we some how don’t end up with the top pick then that changes everything IMO. 

There is no Cam Newton in this draft, and that's the point.  If there was a Cam type of QB, obviously I'm taking them over T-Mac or anyone else in this draft.  

You shouldn't make a pick because of the draft position, you should make a pick because it's the right pick/player.  

I couldn't care less that it's the #1 pick, to me, it's player vs player, pros vs cons, risks vs rewards, all of it mixed together and see where it balances out.  Whether it's the 1st, 5th, 10th, 100th pick, it should never be more than judging the pros/cons of the available players and making the best pick for the long term future of your franchise.

This franchise isn't in a place where dropping an overdrafted QB into it is going to make it an instant contender.  Even if that QB does pan out, we're a few years away from getting enough pieces to contend anyways.

If I thought one of these QB's was worth that risk vs a safer pick, then I'd be for it, but I'm just not there on any of them.

And while I always rant about T-Mac because that's who I'd take if not going with a QB.  I'd also take all of... Hunter (as a CB), maybe the DT from Michigan (who coincidentally went to HS with T-Mac, yea that HS is going to have 2 Top picks in the same draft), or whoever the best pass rusher ends up being even tho they aren't a true #1 pick type... over any of the QB's in this class as of right now.

We've tried to patch holes and find the quick fix for what, 5 years now and we're literally the worst franchise in the league.  I'm fine taking a proper route at building up the roster to having a long term contender, and sometimes that means making the safer pick than the riskier one with admittedly higher upside based on the position.

We need can't miss guys, I don't like the idea of taking a bigger risk with the #1 pick solely because it's the #1 pick, guess that makes me crazy, lol.

Edited 1 hour ago by tukafan21

[CamWhoaaCam]

1 hour ago, tukafan21 said:

Did we take over a thread about who you'd take #1 by having a debate on who you'd take #1?

Basically you still don't want to answer my question, probably because your answer would be either T-Mac like myself, or Hunter, which taking a CB #1 overall is even crazier on the surface than what you're saying I'm stupid for in wanting a WR there.

As I've said before, it's a season without a traditional clear top pick(s).  It would be great if we could trade back if we got #1, but if not, there's nothing wrong with taking a truly elite WR and build out our roster correctly for once instead of always trying to find the quick fix and it backfiring. 

I can't answer your question because I can't see us taking a non QB #1.

 

If we talking #2 pick then I could answer your question.

 

You can't make me answer something that I don't believe will happen. But if it makes you feel better I would probably take Hunter #1 over Tmac just because he's higher on my list of prospects. 

[CamWhoaaCam]

41 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

There is no Cam Newton in this draft, and that's the point.  If there was a Cam type of QB, obviously I'm taking them over T-Mac or anyone else in this draft.  

You shouldn't make a pick because of the draft position, you should make a pick because it's the right pick/player.  

I couldn't care less that it's the #1 pick, to me, it's player vs player, pros vs cons, risks vs rewards, all of it mixed together and see where it balances out.  Whether it's the 1st, 5th, 10th, 100th pick, it should never be more than judging the pros/cons of the available players and making the best pick for the long term future of your franchise.

This franchise isn't in a place where dropping an overdrafted QB into it is going to make it an instant contender.  Even if that QB does pan out, we're a few years away from getting enough pieces to contend anyways.

If I thought one of these QB's was worth that risk vs a safer pick, then I'd be for it, but I'm just not there on any of them.

And while I always rant about T-Mac because that's who I'd take if not going with a QB.  I'd also take all of... Hunter (as a CB), maybe the DT from Michigan (who coincidentally went to HS with T-Mac, yea that HS is going to have 2 Top picks in the same draft), or whoever the best pass rusher ends up being even tho they aren't a true #1 pick type... over any of the QB's in this class as of right now.

We've tried to patch holes and find the quick fix for what, 5 years now and we're literally the worst franchise in the league.  I'm fine taking a proper route at building up the roster to having a long term contender, and sometimes that means making the safer pick than the riskier one with admittedly higher upside based on the position.

We need can't miss guys, I don't like the idea of taking a bigger risk with the #1 pick solely because it's the #1 pick, guess that makes me crazy, lol.

Elite WRs don't win you games. Elite WRs are great to have when you have a elite QB. Have you seen Tyreek Hill without Mahomes? He's not been doing anything with his new team.

 

Calvin Johnson might be the best WR of the last 20 years. How did that work out?

 

Cmon bro this is the #1 pick just because you are down on this QB class doesn't mean everyone else is. Look at the Mock Drafts!

 

My goodness man you have to stop just looking at it from your point of view. Others think this class has 2 elite QBs. Once you understand that you will understand why drafting a QB with #1 makes sense. 

 

If we want Tmac trade back if not just take the best QB.

 

 

[tukafan21]

9 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Elite WRs don't win you games. Elite WRs are great to have when you have a elite QB. Have you seen Tyreek Hill without Mahomes? He's not been doing anything with his new team.

 

Calvin Johnson might be the best WR of the last 20 years. How did that work out?

 

Cmon bro this is the #1 pick just because you are down on this QB class doesn't mean everyone else is. Look at the Mock Drafts!

 

My goodness man you have to stop just looking at it from your point of view. Others think this class has 2 elite QBs. Once you understand that you will understand why drafting a QB with #1 makes sense. 

 

If we want Tmac trade back if not just take the best QB.

 

 

Stop looking at mock drafts and read what analysts are actually saying about the QBs.  

Again, mock drafts are trying to predict what will happen and QB's are always over mocked even in a down QB year because teams tend to draft them.  The QB's being mocked there doesn't mean they think there are 2 elite QB's in this class, learn the difference.  Again I point to 2022 when Pickett and Willis were very often both mocked in the Top 10, Pickett fell to I think 20ish and Willis ended up the 3rd QB taken and in the 2nd round.

If there was even one true elite QB, the fan base isn't even having the discussion about trade backs or DE's or anything else.  Just there being pretty much a consensus on wanting to trade back is proof there isn't actually a legit elite QB prospect, because if there was, no amount of additional draft assets would be worth us trading back as opposed to taking them ourselves.

Also you keep saying 2 elite QB's, which I know you're referring to Sanders and Ward, but there isn't even a consensus on them being the Top 2 QB's anyways, a lot of people put Milroe in there, if not ahead of them.

Out of curiosity I just looked, PFF's overall big board has Milroe at 5, Ward at 15, and Sanders at 21 (ironically, Hunter and T-Mac are 1-2 lol).

Again, argue for a QB all you want, but don't spout nonsense about there being 2 clear elite QB prospects in the class, it's just not the case this year, no matter how badly you want there to be since we'll be drafting where we are.