With the first pick, don't draft a QB? Draft a DE? C'mon!

[tukafan21]

15 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

TMac is good, but he isn't pick 1 on a WR good.  Last year he would be below Nabers and Williams.  This year you could argue Hunter is the better WR.  WR at 1 better be a Calvin Johnson not a WR that disappears some games in college...

The reality though is that there just isn't a traditional #1 pick type of player in this draft to begin with.

He might have been below Marvin last year, but I don't think he'd have been below Nabers.

And if you think he disappears in some college games, then you're only looking at the box scores, I guarantee you not a single NFL GM will say he disappears in games when watching the tape.

Arizona's offense is a MESS this year, the new coaching staff is beyond bad and the fanbase is screaming for them all to be fired, our OL is awful, our QB is playing like utter garbage, and we don't have another weapon to attract any defensive attention.  Teams are double and triple teaming him on almost every snap, and when combined with the OL and QB issues, it's just impossible to get him the ball sometimes.  And even when our QB forces the pass to him, half the time it's not even catchable given how poor he's been playing.

And even despite all that, he's still 3rd in the nation in yards.

I've also seen more WR rankings having Burden over Hunter than I have seen Hunter over T-Mac.  If we had a true outside #1 WR, then taking someone like Hunter (or Burden) instead of T-Mac would make more sense as if Hunter were to play WR in the NFL, he'd more likely be used a slot guy like Godwin or Kupp.  

There's a reason most mocks/analysts who don't list Hunter as a CB/WR (or just Athlete) list him as a CB.  Because it's his better position and the side of the ball he's more likely to play in the NFL, partially due to his wire thin frame, I don't see him holding up long term as a WR.

Edited 1 hour ago by tukafan21

[CamWhoaaCam]

5 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Where did I once say we should draft him because he's a projected Top 5 pick?  

That's one of my many problems with you, your reading comprehension skills are very poor (and/or you just don't care to use your brain, one of the two).  I solely used that to point out that me pushing T-Mac isn't some absurd homerism, that at least I'm pushing someone who is deserving of a Top 5 draft pick.

And despite me explaining it to you numerous times, you still seem to not grasp how QB's get placed in mock drafts vs draft grades.  They are treated entirely different in mock drafts to any other position, because of how teams generally treat them in the draft because of how important the position is.

Literally any other position except QB, mock drafts generally follow draft grades with some team needs factored in.  But with QB's, draft grades are generally disregarded and they ALWAYS put a few QB's at the very top of the draft, because that's just usually what happens.  The exact same thing happened in 2022 with guys like Pickett and Willis widely being Top 10 picks in mock drafts, only for Pickett to fall to what, around 20?, and Willis going in the 2nd round (and even being the 3rd QB if I remember correctly too).

The overwhelming majority of draft experts are saying there isn't a high first round grade on these QB's, but they still get mocked there because they're trying to predict how the draft will actually go.

That's been my point the entire time, reaching for a QB in a bad QB draft when you have a roster as depleted of talent as ours, does not tend to work out well.

And I've never said I'm not open to other players, I've very explicitly said that if a QB or DE stands out come draft time, I'm open to that discussion.  That I'd be open to Hunter as a CB but I prefer a WR over a CB at the top of the draft.  But we're also not talking about the 15th pick here where there could realistically be all sorts of possible picks to discuss.  With the first pick, there really would only be a small handful of options, T-Mac is head and shoulders above any other given our current roster and state of the franchise in general.

Do you have any other prospects you like besides Tmac?

 

I haven't seen you mention anyone besides him as the pick. I get that's your guy, but you have to be open to other prospects as well.

[tukafan21]

You all can laugh at me all you want, call me a homer, whatever.  

But when we're looking back on this in 5 years and T-Mac is widely considered a Top 5 WR in this league, if he's not on the Panthers, you're going to realize I was right about him.

[ForJimmy]

4 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

The reality though is that there just isn't a traditional #1 pick type of player in this draft to begin with.

He might have been below Marvin last year, but I don't think he'd have been below Nabers.

And if you think he disappears in some college games, then you're only looking at the box scores, I guarantee you not a single NFL GM will say he disappears in games when watching the tape.

Arizona's offense is a MESS this year, the new coaching staff is beyond bad and the fanbase is screaming for them all to be fired, our OL is awful, our QB is playing like utter garbage, and we don't have another weapon to attract any defensive attention.  Teams are double and triple teaming him on almost every snap, and when combined with the OL and QB issues, it's just impossible to get him the ball sometimes.  And even when our QB forces the pass to him, half the time it's not even catchable given how poor he's been playing.

And even despite all that, he's still 3rd in the nation in yards.

I've also seen more WR rankings having Burden over Hunter than I have seen Hunter over T-Mac.  If we had a true outside #1 WR, then taking someone like Hunter instead of T-Mac would make more sense as if Hunter were to play WR in the NFL, he'd more likely be a slot guy like Godwin or Kupp.  

Yeah TMac has a third of his yards and 4 out of 5 of his TDs in one game against UNM.  He went 6 games in a row (half a season) without getting a score...  If you are the top WR you have to show up against top competition, yeah I know it's his offense, but he had the same QB last year.  Looks like Utah and Colorado shut him down.  NAU was a horrible game, but I'd have to assume he didn't play that whole game going 2 for 11 yards.  Hunter has 5 of his 8 games with over 100 yards receiving (while playing defense) and 8 TDs to TMac's 5.  If I had to pick one to pick with pick 1 it's probably Hunter.  I'm not hating on TMac either, he is a top of the draft 1st rounder too.  He just isn't pick 1 material and might not be WR1.  I also really doubt he would go before Nabers, but that is just a difference of opinion.  Also if we aren't getting a QB with pick 1 we are probably going defense... 

[tukafan21]

Just now, CamWhoaaCam said:

Do you have any other prospects you like besides Tmac?

 

I haven't seen you mention anyone besides him as the pick. I get that's your guy, but you have to be open to other prospects as well.

Did you even read that post? 

I literally just said that I like Hunter in that post, just not over T-Mac.

The reality of the situation is that there aren't a lot of options at the top of this draft that I like, FOR US RIGHT NOW.  And in general, with the #1 pick of a draft, you're really only looking at maybe 4-6 possibilities anyways.

Most mocks have the top of the draft with the QB's, Hunter, T-Mac, a few OL, and a DL or two.  If we're really looking at the #1 pick in the draft, then there is no reason to look at someone projected to go later than that.  

We aren't taking an OL so I haven't spent a second looking/thinking about them.  None of the DL to me seem worthy of the #1 pick for us, in fact, I see a lot of that DT from Michigan as the Top DL in the draft, which for me is an on starter because we have Brown, too many holes to use the #1 pick on a DT when our current best player is also a DT, even if he's out for the year.

So if it's down to the QB's, Hunter, and T-Mac, then it's a two way race and I've said numerous times why I'm going with the WR over a CB at that part of the draft.

If we were to win a few games and slide further down the draft to the 5-10 range, then yea, it opens up a wider possibility of options, as then you could take one of the DE's, maybe a LB if there is a star like Kuechly to be found (again, I haven't looked at the position much because w'ere not taking a LB if we get a Top 5 pick).

But right now, if we're picking #1, then yea, it's between two guys for me, T-Mac and a CB Hunter, and I'm not taking a CB over T-Mac.

 

[CamWhoaaCam]

10 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

You all can laugh at me all you want, call me a homer, whatever.  

But when we're looking back on this in 5 years and T-Mac is widely considered a Top 5 WR in this league, if he's not on the Panthers, you're going to realize I was right about him.

Nobody is questioning Tmac's talent!

 

Calvin Johnson was a unicorn and he had a QB the Lions sucked for most of his career.

 

The problem is WR impact aren't as valuable as the QB. With the #1 pick you have to take that into consideration.

 

Most of the great WRs today are on bad teams Adams/Chase/Lambo/Hill.

 

This game will always value the QB over a WR. The fact that you're seriously all in on Tmac a WR with the #1 pick is wild to me.

 

 

[CamWhoaaCam]

4 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Did you even read that post? 

I literally just said that I like Hunter in that post, just not over T-Mac.

The reality of the situation is that there aren't a lot of options at the top of this draft that I like, FOR US RIGHT NOW.  And in general, with the #1 pick of a draft, you're really only looking at maybe 4-6 possibilities anyways.

Most mocks have the top of the draft with the QB's, Hunter, T-Mac, a few OL, and a DL or two.  If we're really looking at the #1 pick in the draft, then there is no reason to look at someone projected to go later than that.  

We aren't taking an OL so I haven't spent a second looking/thinking about them.  None of the DL to me seem worthy of the #1 pick for us, in fact, I see a lot of that DT from Michigan as the Top DL in the draft, which for me is an on starter because we have Brown, too many holes to use the #1 pick on a DT when our current best player is also a DT, even if he's out for the year.

So if it's down to the QB's, Hunter, and T-Mac, then it's a two way race and I've said numerous times why I'm going with the WR over a CB at that part of the draft.

If we were to win a few games and slide further down the draft to the 5-10 range, then yea, it opens up a wider possibility of options, as then you could take one of the DE's, maybe a LB if there is a star like Kuechly to be found (again, I haven't looked at the position much because w'ere not taking a LB if we get a Top 5 pick).

But right now, if we're picking #1, then yea, it's between two guys for me, T-Mac and a CB Hunter, and I'm not taking a CB over T-Mac.

 

Thank you for making it clear you like Tmac and Hunter and not really high on anyone else.

 

So the next time someone mentions Hunter please don't throw a fit. You said you like Hunter so no need to throw a tantrum just because others like Hunter over Tmac. They both great players.

[tukafan21]

4 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Yeah TMac has a third of his yards and 4 out of 5 of his TDs in one game against UNM.  He went 6 games in a row (half a season) without getting a score...  If you are the top WR you have to show up against top competition, yeah I know it's his offense, but he had the same QB last year.  Looks like Utah and Colorado shut him down.  NAU was a horrible game, but I'd have to assume he didn't play that whole game going 2 for 11 yards.  Hunter has 5 of his 8 games with over 100 yards receiving (while playing defense) and 8 TDs to TMac's 5.  If I had to pick one to pick with pick 1 it's probably Hunter.  I'm not hating on TMac either, he is a top of the draft 1st rounder too.  He just isn't pick 1 material and might not be WR1.  I also really doubt he would go before Nabers, but that is just a difference of opinion.  Also if we aren't getting a QB with pick 1 we are probably going defense... 

again, this is only looking at the box scores, not what actually happened in the games or taking into consideration the coaching and playcalling.

Yes he had the same QB last year, but that was with a coaching staff that got poached by the NC runner up.  Not to mention we lost a first round pick at LT and all RB as well.  That same QB has no time to make plays like he did last year.

As you noted about him not playing much against NAU, same thing happened against Colorado and I think one or two other games where he wasn’t even playing much in the 2nd halves.

Replace Hunter with T-Mac in that offense and he’d put up utterly insane numbers.

If you notice, no “expert” has said he’s been shut down in a few games, because they watch the tape and know it’s the garbage team around him and the beyond atrocious staff (this new staff is BAD, like Rhule for the Panthers level of bad)

 

[CamWhoaaCam]

3 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

 

Replace Hunter with T-Mac in that offense and he’d put up utterly insane numbers.

 

Why would his numbers improve in the Colorado offense?

 

Is it because the QB you're not high on would make him a better WR?

 

Interesting how you say something about a QB then compliment him when it has to benefit your guy Tmac.

[tukafan21]

10 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Nobody is questioning Tmac's talent!

 

Calvin Johnson was a unicorn and he had a QB the Lions sucked for most of his career.

 

The problem is WR impact aren't as valuable as the QB. With the #1 pick you have to take that into consideration.

 

Most of the great WRs today are on bad teams Adams/Chase/Lambo/Hill.

 

This game will always value the QB over a WR. The fact that you're seriously all in on Tmac a WR with the #1 pick is wild to me.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Thank you for making it clear you like Tmac and Hunter and not really high on anyone else.

 

So the next time someone mentions Hunter please don't throw a fit. You said you like Hunter so no need to throw a tantrum just because others like Hunter over Tmac. They both great players.

Just because a QB has more of an impact and is valued more, doesn't mean you reach for one in a down QB year, that's LITERALLY why we are in this position right now, because it's what we just did with Bryce.

There are far too many question marks with this year's QB class (right now) for me to be okay with taking any of them at the top of the draft.

Taking a QB just because they're more impactful, when one shouldn't be taken there, is how you kill franchises.

And saying I like Hunter in general is completely disregarding the reasons I am vehemently against drafting him (or any CB) in the Top 5 of the draft.  We have Horn, who I fully believe, on a competent defense can still be a Top 10 CB in this league.  Taking another CB in the Top 5 when you have a guy like that is just not a good use of the draft capital, not when the other option is a potential Top 5 WR who can be a serious game changer for the next 10 years.

I would rather reach on a DE that I don't like at #1 than take Hunter, even if I like him as a prospect in general.  CB is a position you can find great talent in FA and even in the middle rounds of the draft, but you can't find a true outside #1 WR through either of those avenues in today's NFL, those type of WR's don't hit the open market.

[ForJimmy]

Just now, tukafan21 said:

again, this is only looking at the box scores, not what actually happened in the games or taking into consideration the coaching and playcalling.

Yes he had the same QB last year, but that was with a coaching staff that got poached by the NC runner up.  Not to mention we lost a first round pick at LT and all RB as well.  That same QB has no time to make plays like he did last year.

As you noted about him not playing much against NAU, same thing happened against Colorado and I think one or two other games where he wasn’t even playing much in the 2nd halves.

Replace Hunter with T-Mac in that offense and he’d put up utterly insane numbers.

If you notice, no “expert” has said he’s been shut down in a few games, because they watch the tape and know it’s the garbage team around him and the beyond atrocious staff (this new staff is BAD, like Rhule for the Panthers level of bad)

 

So these experts you are obsessed with have Hunter going over TMac in a lot of these mock drafts.  Hell most have Sanders, Ward, AND Hunter going over him.  So if we are letting the same talking heads do all the work that ranked Young as QB1 in the same class as Stroud then you go ahead and do that while also realizing they are projecting QBs and Hunter to go over TMac.  So if you are wanting us to listen to these "experts" again we probably go QB at 1...  I get you like him him as a fan and he is a great prospect.  Honestly if we trade down I'd be for it or possibly Carter at Edge.  

https://www.si.com/college/arizona/news/will-arizona-wildcats-wr-tetairoa-mcmillan-be-an-impact-nfl-player-right-away

"However, he was shutdown by a great defensive scheme by the Northern Arizona Lumberjacks in Week 2. The star wide receiver only totaled two receptions for 11 yards in the narrow win." 

Looks like that writer thinks the Lumberjacks shut him down....

[tukafan21]

1 minute ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Why would his numbers improve in the Colorado offense?

 

Is it because the QB you're not high on would make him a better WR?

 

Interesting how you say something about a QB then compliment him when it has to benefit your guy Tmac.

You do realize that the college game is entirely different than the NFL, right?

There are ELITE college QBs that aren't even good NFL QB's, cough cough BRYCE YOUNG cough cough.

Colorado's entire offensive system is built around putting up big stats and outside of Hunter/T-Mac they have far more weapons at their disposal than Arizona has to take up attention from the defense.

I've also never said Sanders is going to be a garbage player, I don't think he'll be an Elite Top 10 NFL QB type of guy either, but he's still significantly better than Arizona's QB, so yes, he'd make T-Mac even better than Arizona's QB, even if I don't think he should be the #1 pick in the draft, that's not a hard concept to grasp.

[CamWhoaaCam]

4 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

 

Just because a QB has more of an impact and is valued more, doesn't mean you reach for one in a down QB year, that's LITERALLY why we are in this position right now, because it's what we just did with Bryce.

There are far too many question marks with this year's QB class (right now) for me to be okay with taking any of them at the top of the draft.

Taking a QB just because they're more impactful, when one shouldn't be taken there, is how you kill franchises.

And saying I like Hunter in general is completely disregarding the reasons I am vehemently against drafting him (or any CB) in the Top 5 of the draft.  We have Horn, who I fully believe, on a competent defense can still be a Top 10 CB in this league.  Taking another CB in the Top 5 when you have a guy like that is just not a good use of the draft capital, not when the other option is a potential Top 5 WR who can be a serious game changer for the next 10 years.

I would rather reach on a DE that I don't like at #1 than take Hunter, even if I like him as a prospect in general.  CB is a position you can find great talent in FA and even in the middle rounds of the draft, but you can't find a true outside #1 WR through either of those avenues in today's NFL, those type of WR's don't hit the open market.

You literally just said Tmac would put up insane numbers if he was playing with Sanders and the Colorado offense.

 

Yet you are down on this QB class smh

[tukafan21]

4 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

So these experts you are obsessed with have Hunter going over TMac in a lot of these mock drafts.  Hell most have Sanders, Ward, AND Hunter going over him.  So if we are letting the same talking heads do all the work that ranked Young as QB1 in the same class as Stroud then you go ahead and do that while also realizing they are projecting QBs and Hunter to go over TMac.  So if you are wanting us to listen to these "experts" again we probably go QB at 1...  I get you like him him as a fan and he is a great prospect.  Honestly if we trade down I'd be for it or possibly Carter at Edge.  

https://www.si.com/college/arizona/news/will-arizona-wildcats-wr-tetairoa-mcmillan-be-an-impact-nfl-player-right-away

"However, he was shutdown by a great defensive scheme by the Northern Arizona Lumberjacks in Week 2. The star wide receiver only totaled two receptions for 11 yards in the narrow win." 

Looks like that writer thinks the Lumberjacks shut him down....

Yes, NAU "shut him down" by literally triple teaming him on almost every snap, I don't care how good you are, when you're triple teamed and your QB is playing poorly and behind an OL that gives you all of 2 seconds to make a play, that WR isn't going to do anything that game unless your coaching staff schemes him up to get quick passes, which they didn't.  

Our Arizona boards have been losing their poo all season over how bad the staff is using him and their play designs/calls.  

And as I've said numerous times, QB's don't get mocked by draft grades, those same experts that had Young and Stroud at the top of those mock drafts also openly admitted they didn't have them graded that high, same as this year's class.

Also as I've said numerous times, look at the position label or what they say about Hunter in those mock drafts, they almost all have him listed as CB and/or discuss him as a CB in their breakdown of him, because it's his better side of the ball and where he's more likely to play.