With the first pick, don't draft a QB? Draft a DE? C'mon!

[ForJimmy]

35 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

This draft is 2023 all over again, it's not hard to see.

QB's who don't grade out as high first round prospects while at the same time, the following draft class looks to be loaded with elite QB prospects.

Drafting a QB just because you need one (or making a bad trade to make said draft pick), when there isn't one worthy of that draft pick, is how you ruin franchises, just look at us right now.  

Who is in this loaded 26 class? Nico has been struggling? Manning was promising but can’t kept Ewers on the bench like Caleb did to Rattler. Who am I missing? 

[tukafan21]

12 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

Who is in this loaded 26 class? Nico has been struggling? Manning was promising but can’t kept Ewers on the bench like Caleb did to Rattler. Who am I missing? 

I'm not going to pretend I follow future draft classes like that to rattle off the names, but basically every college and draft expert has been talking about that for a while.  While at the same time, even if that doesn't pan out, it doesn't change that this year's class just doesn't have that elite QB talent anyways, and reaching on a QB just because you need one is never a smart idea to begin with.

And Manning was never going to keep Ewers on the bench, he always knew he'd be sitting for 2 years until Ewers left, no matter how good he was, it was never going to be an open competition that he could win, just now how they did it and the Manning family was okay with that, if they weren't, he never would have gone back to Texas this year to begin with.

We've reached to try and fix our QB spot for what, 4 out of the last 5 years, with this season being the first time we didn't make a knee jerk reaction, because frankly we couldn't after just 1 year of Bryce.

We reached on Two Gloves being the fix, then reached back to back years in bad trades for Darnold and Baker without giving them the supporting cast to succeed like they both are now, and then reached on the trade for Bryce.

Reaching just out of need, doesn't work, period.

This roster is too depleted on talent, particularly skill positions, to try and fit a square peg into a round hole at QB.  Build up the roster and then insert the QB, it doesn't even need to be a Top 10 pick if you built out a solid roster around them.

Look at teams like the Lions or Falcons right now.  Build up the proper assets for a few years and then find a way to insert a QB capable of taking advantage of those weapons.  We keep trying to do the opposite and it's tanking our QB's chances of succeeding before they ever take the field.

I still say we take T-Mac, try and trade for someone like Hooker from the Lions, and let them start all year long.  Either we find our diamond in the rough at QB on the cheap or he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB who will have a true #1 and high end #2 (Legette) who are in their 2nd and 3rd year's respectively to give them great weapons to help them succeed early.

Or you go after someone like Jameis, he's not going to make you a contender, but he can sling the rock, which will help develop those young weapons like Legette, Sanders, Brooks, and hopefully T-Mac as they'll get peppered with targets unlike what Bryce would give you.

Edited 2 hours ago by tukafan21

[CamWhoaaCam]

32 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

 

I still say we take T-Mac, try and trade for someone like Hooker from the Lions, and let them start all year long.  Either we find our diamond in the rough at QB on the cheap or he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB who will have a true #1 and high end #2 (Legette) who are in their 2nd and 3rd year's respectively to give them great weapons to help them succeed early.

Hold on playa!

First you said Tmac is a generational WR and we should take him #1, but at the same time you saying our success will still depend on the success of the QB.

 

Bro do you not understand how you're not making any sense. If we drafting Tmac #1 he better be good enough to make a impact on this offense no matter the QB. You can't hype him up as the #1 pick yet ignore that his success depends on the QB. If he's that guy he will make this offense go no matter the QB.

 

Generational WR im thinking Justin Jefferson type impact. No matter the QB Jefferson will ball out and carry the offense every Sunday no matter the QB.

 

If we drafting a WR #1 overall that's the expectations I have. If we need a good QB for him to have success then why are you drafting that player with the #1 pick?

 

I need answers!

Edited 2 hours ago by CamWhoaaCam

[chknwing]

theres no clear #1 out side of qb, might as wel trade down to the middle of the 1st and stock pile picks, we need alot of players

[ForJimmy]

56 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

I'm not going to pretend I follow future draft classes like that to rattle off the names, but basically every college and draft expert has been talking about that for a while.  While at the same time, even if that doesn't pan out, it doesn't change that this year's class just doesn't have that elite QB talent anyways, and reaching on a QB just because you need one is never a smart idea to begin with.

And Manning was never going to keep Ewers on the bench, he always knew he'd be sitting for 2 years until Ewers left, no matter how good he was, it was never going to be an open competition that he could win, just now how they did it and the Manning family was okay with that, if they weren't, he never would have gone back to Texas this year to begin with.

We've reached to try and fix our QB spot for what, 4 out of the last 5 years, with this season being the first time we didn't make a knee jerk reaction, because frankly we couldn't after just 1 year of Bryce.

We reached on Two Gloves being the fix, then reached back to back years in bad trades for Darnold and Baker without giving them the supporting cast to succeed like they both are now, and then reached on the trade for Bryce.

Reaching just out of need, doesn't work, period.

This roster is too depleted on talent, particularly skill positions, to try and fit a square peg into a round hole at QB.  Build up the roster and then insert the QB, it doesn't even need to be a Top 10 pick if you built out a solid roster around them.

Look at teams like the Lions or Falcons right now.  Build up the proper assets for a few years and then find a way to insert a QB capable of taking advantage of those weapons.  We keep trying to do the opposite and it's tanking our QB's chances of succeeding before they ever take the field.

I still say we take T-Mac, try and trade for someone like Hooker from the Lions, and let them start all year long.  Either we find our diamond in the rough at QB on the cheap or he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB who will have a true #1 and high end #2 (Legette) who are in their 2nd and 3rd year's respectively to give them great weapons to help them succeed early.

Or you go after someone like Jameis, he's not going to make you a contender, but he can sling the rock, which will help develop those young weapons like Legette, Sanders, Brooks, and hopefully T-Mac as they'll get peppered with targets unlike what Bryce would give you.

So you are just going by what these analysts are saying. So if come draft time they say Ward/Sanders is worth pick 1 you should be good. The future draft QB class is always going to be projected as the next great thing until these young players start playing the game and scouts can see some flaws. Think of all of the high school phenoms that didn’t look as good in college. 
If Manning does turn out to be the next great prospect only one team gets to draft him. Odds are someone else could get the top pick, especially if go all in on building a supporting roster. I’m never going to be a just wait another year guy, because there are so many variables. If our staff loves Ward/Sanders then we should just draft them with our pick. It’s as simple as that. I also might go with Hunter over TMac as WR1 in this class. 
The roster has the OL to help a young QB, young weapons in Coker, XL, and JT to grow with a QB, and a RB who can catch in Brooks as a safety net for a young QB. Sign a vet WR, extend BC and our offense would be set outside of depth. Let our young offensive core go through their growing pains while we iron out the defense. It’s definitely a path forward.

[tukafan21]

12 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Hold on playa!

First you said Tmac is a generational WR and we should take him #1, but at the same time you saying our success will still depend on the success of the QB.

 

Bro do you not understand how you're not making any sense. If we drafting Tmac #1 he better be good enough to make a impact on this offense no matter the QB. You can't hype him up as the #1 pick yet ignore that his success depends on the QB. If he's that guy he will make this offense go no matter the QB.

 

Generational WR im thinking Justin Jefferson type impact. No matter the QB Jefferson will ball out and carry the offense every Sunday no matter the QB.

 

If we drafting a WR #1 overall that's the expectations I have. If we need a good QB for him to have success then why are you drafting that player with the #1 pick?

 

I need answers!

Sweet jebus this is idiotic

Yes, overall team success in this league, you need a good QB, but beyond just that painfully obvious fact, let's get into the rest of the stupid in there.........

First things first, you say.. "if we need a good QB for him to have success, then why are you drafting that player with the #1 pick"

Show me one time I've ever said we would need a good QB for T-Mac himself to have success... you can't, because I never have.  I think you're referring to the "he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB" part of my post, which is very clearly talking about said QB, not T-Mac.  The other way to interpret that is just overall team success, which again, wouldn't be anything about T-Mac or his ability to impact the offense or overall team wins and losses.

I'm quite sure I could do this with a number of teams over the years, but I don't want to spend the time to do multiple, so I'll keep it to just the 2023 Vikings right now since you wanted to use Jefferson as your example.......

The Vikings went 3-6 after Cousins went down last year.  And two of those wins came before Jefferson even came back from his own injury, they were 1-4 in the final 5 weeks after Jefferson came back.

In those 5 games, Jefferson had 31 catches, 503 yards, and 2 TDs

Having the WR you specifically called out didn't help them go better than 1-4 with a bad QB, even though he still put up a great stat line for that time period either.  It also didn't make that QB good enough to where they then went out and brought in TWO new QB's this year to replace Doubs and Mullens who started down the stretch for them last year.

And that's with 4th year Jefferson, not a rookie that T-Mac would be

If you expect a WR getting drafted #1 overall to be the player to turn a franchise as bad as we are around in 1 season, make whatever QB we're able to put in there be successful, and lead us to a solid season, then you are literally insane.

We are AWFUL, we have a few young guys who could turn into great players, but we are so far from being a good team, that there isn't any player we could draft next year that is going to change that in 2025.

[kungfoodude]

16 hours ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

Again FA is not how you build a competitive team. That is for teams who already have talent. We don't have that right now.

 

At best you hit on 2 elite guys in FA. That's not turning this team around. We have to simply start drafting better. That's how you build your foundation. We have a decent Oline now and the WR room looks decent with the rookies. Now it's time to start adding some talent on defense. That's our biggest concern right now.

 

Hit on those draft picks and a few key FA guys and we can start talking about changing the culture. 

Right. But you do understand that there is no such thing as not signing free agents, right? That's what I mean.

So make some good free agency moves and do well in the draft. That's step one. If you can't accomplish that, then this will just keep getting worse.

Edited 1 hour ago by kungfoodude

[kungfoodude]

10 hours ago, Jon Snow said:

Cheap 1 yr contracts sure. They have to field a complete roster of course. What I'm saying is they should not be handing out any contracts over 2 years to anyone until they draft their core players. So far i would argue they do not have na single one. Until that happens I do not have any faith that this team will ever be more than the worst team in the league. 

I don't have a problem handing out more than 1 year contracts. That's just not realistic nor has that likely ever been done in the history of the NFL.

I am more concerned about the type of free agents we sign.

[CamWhoaaCam]

13 minutes ago, tukafan21 said:

Sweet jebus this is idiotic

Yes, overall team success in this league, you need a good QB, but beyond just that painfully obvious fact, let's get into the rest of the stupid in there.........

First things first, you say.. "if we need a good QB for him to have success, then why are you drafting that player with the #1 pick"

Show me one time I've ever said we would need a good QB for T-Mac himself to have success... you can't, because I never have.  I think you're referring to the "he's bad enough that we then have a Top 5 pick to target a QB" part of my post, which is very clearly talking about said QB, not T-Mac.  The other way to interpret that is just overall team success, which again, wouldn't be anything about T-Mac or his ability to impact the offense or overall team wins and losses.

I'm quite sure I could do this with a number of teams over the years, but I don't want to spend the time to do multiple, so I'll keep it to just the 2023 Vikings right now since you wanted to use Jefferson as your example.......

The Vikings went 3-6 after Cousins went down last year.  And two of those wins came before Jefferson even came back from his own injury, they were 1-4 in the final 5 weeks after Jefferson came back.

In those 5 games, Jefferson had 31 catches, 503 yards, and 2 TDs

Having the WR you specifically called out didn't help them go better than 1-4 with a bad QB, even though he still put up a great stat line for that time period either.  It also didn't make that QB good enough to where they then went out and brought in TWO new QB's this year to replace Doubs and Mullens who started down the stretch for them last year.

And that's with 4th year Jefferson, not a rookie that T-Mac would be

If you expect a WR getting drafted #1 overall to be the player to turn a franchise as bad as we are around in 1 season, make whatever QB we're able to put in there be successful, and lead us to a solid season, then you are literally insane.

We are AWFUL, we have a few young guys who could turn into great players, but we are so far from being a good team, that there isn't any player we could draft next year that is going to change that in 2025.

We are awful on defense. The offense is fine when Bryce isn't the QB. We have weapons on offense and a decent Oline.

 

Defense is where we need to improve the most. Tmac can help, but is WR really our biggest weakness right now?

 

I just don't agree with taking a WR with the #1 pick. It rarely happens for a reason.

[CamWhoaaCam]

14 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

Right. But you do understand that there is no such thing as not signing free agents, right? That's what I mean.

So make some good free agency moves and do well in the draft. That's step one. If you can't accomplish that, then this will just keep getting worse.

What FA's are you looking at realistically?

 

 

[CPF4LIFE]

Why do people act like we have only one pick in the draft or something? It's strange....The offense needs a QB, the defense needs MULTIPLE talent any position. You aren't gonna fix anything with one player and there is no hutchinson, peppers, donald, watt type in this draft. I say if you need a qb get one then go defense the rest of the way. 

Edited 29 minutes ago by CPF4LIFE

[tukafan21]

16 minutes ago, ForJimmy said:

So you are just going by what these analysts are saying. So if come draft time they say Ward/Sanders is worth pick 1 you should be good. The future draft QB class is always going to be projected as the next great thing until these young players start playing the game and scouts can see some flaws. Think of all of the high school phenoms that didn’t look as good in college. 
If Manning does turn out to be the next great prospect only one team gets to draft him. Odds are someone else could get the top pick, especially if go all in on building a supporting roster. I’m never going to be a just wait another year guy, because there are so many variables. If our staff loves Ward/Sanders then we should just draft them with our pick. It’s as simple as that. I also might go with Hunter over TMac as WR1 in this class. 
The roster has the OL to help a young QB, young weapons in Coker, XL, and JT to grow with a QB, and a RB who can catch in Brooks as a safety net for a young QB. Sign a vet WR, extend BC and our offense would be set outside of depth. Let our young offensive core go through their growing pains while we iron out the defense. It’s definitely a path forward.

No, not saying I just go by what they say.

I look at what they say and take it into account when I watch their breakdowns of said players and then make my own opinions, from a variety of analysts from multiple networks.  But I don't do it for drafts 2 years out, I just pay attention to the ones in the upcoming draft and at positions we may be targeting, such as QB and WR in this upcoming draft.

Which is why even though yea, a lot of scouts really liked Bryce 2 years ago, I was vehemently against drafting him, because of the major limitations I saw in his tape.  If by the draft, these analysts are sold on one of these QBs and then I agree with them with what I'm seeing with my eyes, then yea, I'd be open to drafting one.  

Right now though, I'm not seeing it from any of these guys yet, sure, they all have plenty of flashes to show they could be elite.  But none of them look like they're enough of a can't miss prospect for us to take them with the state of our roster right now.

If we had a more built out roster right now, then I'd also be more open to taking the risk on another QB this quickly.  But we don't and we have a chance to take someone I genuinely believe is a can't miss prospect who will be a Top 5 WR in this league for a while.

For a franchise in a state that we are in right now, taking another QB who flops will be FAR worse for our franchise than passing on a questionable #1 pick QB prospect who turns into a star and instead end up with a perennial All Pro candidate at WR as a consolation prize.  

And while I said I don't blindly trust the experts, it's hard to not see that they've been right about that the last few years, they said it before 2022 and 2023 and they were both years without can't miss QB prospects (look at Pickett, Willis, Bryce, and A-Rich right now) and for a couple years before 2024 they were saying it would be a great class, and it really looks like it should be.

So yea, in general, I trust that this is a bad year to reach on a QB at #1 with what they're saying about next year right now.

To your point about taking Hunter over T-Mac as a WR, hard pass, I'd take Burden over a WR Hunter if not going with T-Mac (albeit not at #1 of course).  Hunter is going to be a CB in the NFL who gets the occasional snaps at WR.  Beyond that just being his better side of the ball in general, he's really slender and is struggling to stay healthy in college, granted part of it is playing both ways.  But in the more physical NFL, he's not built to stay healthy as a WR, he's dealt with injuries each of his 3 years in college so far already.

I won't fight taking Hunter as a CB in general, but I still can't get on board with taking him over an offensive difference maker like T-Mac, not as a CB when we also have Horn.  If a true elite DE or QB were to show by the end of the year, I wouldn't be against one of them over T-Mac, but other than those two positions having someone stand out, I wouldn't take anyone else over T-Mac, and I'd 100% honestly still feel that way if I wasn't an Arizona alum.

If T-Mac wasn't 6'5" with the rest of his intangibles, then I might not feel so strongly about it as well.  That size for someone who isn't a plodding big man is so rare to find, he's going to be a unique weapon in a league filled with crazy talent.  Just look at what Mike Evans has done to us in his career, who he's most compared to (although personally I see him more as AJ Green as he's not as thick as Evans).  There's only a few guys out there like that, I can't pass on getting one of them on our team for a change at a position of need that we haven't filled since we lost Smitty.

He's going to be the true elite #1 that puts up big stats while also opening things up for everyone else because of the attention he draws.  He can be our own Jefferson, Tyreek, Chase, etc, he's different than all of them, but they're also different from each other as well.

I love Legette, but he's never going to be THAT guy, he can be a Top 15-20 WR type of guy, a decent #1 or a truly elite #2 on a contender, but T-Mac is going to be THAT guy.  

[tukafan21]

42 minutes ago, CamWhoaaCam said:

We are awful on defense. The offense is fine when Bryce isn't the QB. We have weapons on offense and a decent Oline.

 

Defense is where we need to improve the most. Tmac can help, but is WR really our biggest weakness right now?

 

I just don't agree with taking a WR with the #1 pick. It rarely happens for a reason.

No, biggest weakness is pass rush, but I don't think there is a blue chip can't miss DE prospect to take at #1 this year, same as with QB.  But beyond that, moving forward, yea WR is a pretty damn big weakness.

We have 1 game this season over 224 yards passing and just traded away our best WR (who wasn't going to re-sign here anyways).  That WR no longer on the team was also the only player we've had this year who had over 78 yards receiving in a game.  So again, yea, WR is one of our biggest weaknesses even right now, let alone moving into the future.

As I just said in my other post, I love Legette, but he's not going to be a Top 5-10 WR type of guy, Top 15-20 I can see, I think he can be a good #1 WR or an elite #2.

After that, what do we have for the future? 

Thielen isn't part of it, sure as hell isn't going to be Mingo, and as much as we all like Coker, in no world is Coker as our #2 to Legette as the #1 going be considered as "having weapons" at WR, even with Brooks and Sanders.

But put someone like T-Mac into that group, who I genuinely think is going to be a Top 5 WR in this league for a long time, and it changes things.  A Top 5 WR with Legette/Coker as the 2/3, along with Brooks and Sanders, has the potential to be one of the best set of offensive weapons in the league if they reach their potential.

 

[Jackie Lee]

18 minutes ago, CPF4LIFE said:

Why do people act like we have only one pick in the draft or something? It's strange....The offense needs a QB, the defense needs MULTIPLE talent any position. You aren't gonna fix anything with one player and there is no hutchinson, peppers, donald, watt type in this draft. I say if you need a qb get one then go defense the rest of the way. 

I just tried a few mock draft simulators and this is the only way lol. Nothing else makes sense.