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Why so many teams are switching to the 3-4 and what it means for the Panthers

Fiz

By Fiz,
in Carolina Panthers

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panthers55 Grand Master

panthers55

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p55 i took you off ignore because I thought you had posted something worthwhile. That's the last time I take cyberjag's obese ass seriously.

Since I know you didn't read it, and you sure seem willing to write (copy and paste) a lot, I will condense my argument into a simple form for you to respond to. Remember, if you want to argue with me, you need to address the specific points that I'm making.

3-4 defenses are spreading in the league.

This is due in part to two things

1. The rise in 3-4 ready talent from college ranks, due to defenses countering spread offenses, and people naturally becoming more athletic and making them possible.

2. With the few exceptions of brilliant 4-3 D coordinators, it allows the defense more creativity and more possibilities to blitz, hopefully negating the advantage created by QB friendly rule changes.

For the Panthers, this means that there will be more 4-3 talent available as teams move towards 3-4s (or 3-1-3 in the case of arizona etc), much like Ted Washington in the 90s. Certainly today no one as good as him would make his way to 7 teams.

First of all the 3-4 is coming back for a few reasons. It is easier to find 3-4 OLB talent that 4-3 DE talent since most 4-3 DEs in college can play a 3-4 OLB but not as many can play a 4-3 DE spot. With the increase in sophistication of college defensive schemes DEs are being asked to play in space more often and are acquirng some of the skills necessary to transistion to a 3-4 in the pros. Also as more disciples of the 3-4 are created as they study under those already running one, you have more coaches familiar and proficient running the 3-4.

I would agree that the talent in college has improved over the years as players get more athletic. I would also agree that with a number of pro coaches migrating to the college ranks, offenses and defenses have gotten more sophisticated. Is there more 3-4 ready talent out there? Many of the same guys who are now being used for 3-4 OLBs are also being used for 4-3 DEs. Look at a guy like Brown. He is about as heavy as most 3-4 linebackers and could have gone either way. Taylor is another one who was considered for both. There has always been alot of talent for the 3-4 since most colleges play a 4-3 and there are 2 DEs who will either be a 4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB. I don't see a trend toward colleges going to smaller DEs simply for speed purposes since the spread requires more speed in the secondary and linebacking core than from your linemen. And there are not a lot of linebackers in college who end up being great 3-4 linebackers although there are a few every year.

The 3-4 does have advantages against pass heavy offenses and it makes sense with the league going to more passing that defenses would gravitate to those best against the pass. The 3-4 can be beaten by good rushing attacks like ours and you will notice that many teams that traditionally run a 3-4 base scheme will bring in extra guys on the line when they play us. Dallas is a classic example of this when we play. The other thing to note that even 3-4 defenses typically run other schemes at least 50% of the time so there are few teams that run one scheme all the time even during a single game.

As for will the transition to a 3-4 afford us more talent, the short answer is yes and no. In the short term it could as teams make the initial transition and unload their talent that doesn't fit their new scheme. That is how we got Tank Tyler from Kansas City in a trade. And it may help us find linebackers since the ones we favor are typically too small to play linebacker in a 3-4. Perhaps even a few DTs in the 300lb range deemed too small or too slow to play DE in a 3-4 and hold the edge will migrate our way. But in the position that is hardest find in a 4-3 which is a DE it won't make much of a difference. It can also be noted that we have traditionally used a variation of the 4-3 where we have a big nose tackle like Kemo and now Louis similar to most 3-4s. Those fellows are the hardest to find and will even be harder to find if more teams go to a 3-4.

And for the record I did read your post but as I noted elsewhere my post wasn't an attempt to discredit you just clarify some information. It would be nice if you could afford me the same consideration.

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Lumps Newbie

Lumps

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I have made fun of p55 for his long posts that put people in circles of long ass arguments that are brain numbing, but he does contribute a valid perspective that in this case I liked the info. I also take shots at you. Even I don't really post anything useful I am just a responder. But who the f**k cares? This was a post worth reading, so chill out Fiz, I give rep.

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Cyberjag Newbie

Cyberjag

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When Fiz grows up he wants to be at least half as knowledgeable as P55, although until then he'll always act like he knows twice as much. :)

p55 i took you off ignore because I thought you had posted something worthwhile. That's the last time I take cyberjag's obese ass seriously.

Since I know you didn't read it, and you sure seem willing to write (copy and paste) a lot, I will condense my argument into a simple form for you to respond to. Remember, if you want to argue with me, you need to address the specific points that I'm making.

3-4 defenses are spreading in the league.

This is due in part to two things

1. The rise in 3-4 ready talent from college ranks, due to defenses countering spread offenses, and people naturally becoming more athletic and making them possible.

2. With the few exceptions of brilliant 4-3 D coordinators, it allows the defense more creativity and more possibilities to blitz, hopefully negating the advantage created by QB friendly rule changes.

For the Panthers, this means that there will be more 4-3 talent available as teams move towards 3-4s (or 3-1-3 in the case of arizona etc), much like Ted Washington in the 90s. Certainly today no one as good as him would make his way to 7 teams.

He still knows more than you do. But don't feel bad, he knows more than I do too. :)

BTW, I think one of the reasons that more teams are going to the 3-4 is simply to sell tickets. It's a copycat league, after all. And if you announce you're going to a 3-4, gullible fans are all ready to believe that the defense is suddenly going to be the second coming of the steel curtain (which was a cover-2, BTW). The reality is that if you suck, you suck. Just ask the Chiefs, who rode the 3-4 to the 30th best defensive ranking in the league last year.

Frankly, I don't think it matters a hell of a lot whether you run a 4-3 or a 3-4 or a 96. If you have a lot of talent on the defensive side of the ball, you're going to get good results. If you don't, then you can scheme all day long and you'll still look like crap. And last year, the top five defenses against the run were Dallas, Pittsburgh, Green Bay, Baltimore, and Minnesota. Only the Vikes ran a 4-3. Tell me, is that because they ran a 3-4 or because they had great personnel?

But Fiz, you nailed it when you said that it benefits the Panthers. Cover-2 Defensive Ends are hard enough to find, and with more teams going to the 3-4 they're easier to get hold of now. And in a cover-2 your cornerbacks need to be physical and rangy; you don't need the man-to-man specialists that the 3-4 requires. So that's two positions that are hard to fill, but easier to fill for the Panthers because there are so many idiot "flavor of the month" DCs out there.

I'm happy that Fox has stayed with the cover-2. The 3-4 is exciting, but it's more vulnerable to the big play and I think that a good team finds it easier to score on one. With the cover-2, the zone gets tighter the closer to the end zone you get, and that means that while you can move the ball between the 20s, the defense tends to improve a LOT where it counts (another point you made). If I had to choose between the two schemes, the Cover-2 would be the pick any day.

BTW, I'm not obese. I'm pleasingly plump, dammit!

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