Scouting Department vs. Front Office

[strato]

16 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

If they did it was hard to tell with the 2024 draft. Boy that was a very Fitterer draft.

It was very Bryce Young draft IMO. 1st two picks were about helping him. No one realistically expected, at the time, that he would be so uncoachable that it would be thrown out 2 games in. I am one of his biggest detractors and I didn't see it happening in April. I don't think anyone did.

But anyway, things don't instantly take and here comes that process word but it is sort of appropriate.

And really I am not sure their expertise is in the player evaluation as much as it might be for game situation and opponent analysis or analysis derived from specific things pertaining to the NFL. I'd have to find that interview to even start getting a handle on what exactly they do. It isn't my area really. I just remember thinking the guy was pretty sharp and well respected and that he was coming to work for the Panthers.

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, strato said:

It was very Bryce Young draft IMO. 1st two picks were about helping him. No one realistically expected, at the time, that he would be so uncoachable that it would be thrown out 2 games in. I am one of his biggest detractors and I didn't see it happening in April. I don't think anyone did.

But anyway, things don't instantly take and here comes that process word but it is sort of appropriate.

And really I am not sure their expertise is in the player evaluation as much as it might be for game situation and opponent analysis or analysis derived from specific things pertaining to the NFL. I'd have to find that interview to even start getting a handle on what exactly they do. It isn't my area really. I just remember thinking the guy was pretty sharp and well respected and that he was coming to work for the Panthers.

How were they about helping him? XL isn't a ready to play guy. He's a project. Brooks was always going to miss significant time. Another long term prospect.

The problem is that we have no idea about how to build a success roster nor evaluate talent. That much is painfully obvious.

Like I said, that 2024 draft was a Fitterer classic, high ceiling, immensely low floor guys.

[Bear Hands]

11 minutes ago, kungfoodude said:

How were they about helping him? XL isn't a ready to play guy. He's a project. Brooks was always going to miss significant time. Another long term prospect.

The problem is that we have no idea about how to build a success roster nor evaluate talent. That much is painfully obvious.

Like I said, that 2024 draft was a Fitterer classic, high ceiling, immensely low floor guys.

Yep-It was. Heck..Plenty here were thinking we should shore up the OL or DL if the top WRs were gone.  Or maybe a DB. 

Not only that, but Ladd was available at WR, Newton was available at DL, Frazier, P-J, Kneeland, talent was there and we reached for a guy many had reported was around 70ish overall and at least a 3rd round grade for many teams. Did the same exact thing with Mingo a year prior over legit WR talent in Jayden Reed and Rashee Rice. Also had JuJu Brents, Branch, Tuli RIGHT f’n there for us. 

[strato]

My point is they were looking at the whole year with Bryce, and into the future. 

Legette is really a great guy to run down and compete for a ball with a DB. He (Bryce) couldn't complete poo down field (in 2023).

The back was because he has the receiving skills. That is what set him apart (besides the ACL rehab).  My view of it was he (Bryce) needed to be trending up and showing he could do something the second half of the season. I certainly didn't expect to win a lot under any circumstances, considering the multiple factors including a new offensive system, so competing early wasn't something I expected to do.

 

If you look at it that way it might be more understandable than the view that places top priority on winning games out of the gate. This was always going to be a learning year. The complaining about that wasn't realistic to me. Inconsistent with reality. People put unreasonable expectations about winning, while predicting we'd maybe win 4 or 5 games. It was a little illogical. 

Bro, I have watched just like you have, the steady decline year by year, under Tepper's yoke. We weren't winning so take care of your business that gets you competitive and pointing up at year's end. Max expectations on my end.

Honestly it was all about suffering through what we had to, and allowing Young to show what he was. I knew or thought I knew, but poo necessitated that other people be convinced.

Edited October 7 by strato

[kungfoodude]

7 minutes ago, strato said:

My point is they were looking at the whole year with Bryce, and into the future. 

Legette is really a great guy to run down and compete for a ball with a DB. He (Bryce) couldn't complete poo down field (in 2023).

The back was because he has the receiving skills. That is what set him apart (besides the ACL rehab).  My view of it was he (Bryce) needed to be trending up and showing he could do something the second half of the season. I certainly didn't expect to win a lot under any circumstances, considering the multiple factors including a new offensive system, so competing early wasn't something I expected to do.

 

If you look at it that way it might be more understandable than the view that places top priority on winning games out of the gate. This was always going to be a learning year. The complaining about that wasn't realistic to me. Inconsistent with reality. People put unreasonable expectations about winning, while predicting we'd maybe win 4 or 5 games. It was a little illogical. 

Bro, I have watched just like you have, the steady decline year by year, under Tepper's yoke. We weren't winning so take care of your business that gets you competitive and pointing up at year's end. Max expectations on my end.

Honestly it was all about suffering through what we had to, and allowing Young to show what he was. I knew or thought I knew, but poo necessitated that other people be convinced.

It IS about winning. It's not about drafting guys that have low chances of panning out because they need a bunch of development or for things to just go right.

This is where we fail all the time as an organization under Tepper. Thinking we are smarter than everyone else when 95+% of the time we are substantially dumber than anyone else.

This entire 2024 draft reeks of this hubris.

[strato]

If you really thought we were going to immediately win with things as they stood (even with two new draft picks made to win now), well I just don't believe you thought that. If you did, man what the hell? 

My view was wanting to see signs of winning as we got deeper into the year. But I said that. This isn't getting us anywhere I am gonna go back to venting or something.

 

Edited October 7 by strato

[Move the Panthers to Raleigh]

I think the scouting department is just straight up terrible. I find it hard to believe they are making good suggestions but our FO is just ignoring them (outside of maybe Bryce)

[kungfoodude]

5 minutes ago, strato said:

If you really thought we were going to immediately win with things as they stood (even with two new draft picks made to win now), well I just don't believe you thought that. If you did, man what the hell? 

My view was wanting to see signs of winning as we got deeper into the year. But I said that. This isn't getting us anywhere I am gonna go back to venting or something.

 

No, I thought we were going to maybe draft intelligently for once and actually get people that, I don't know, can play professional football. Not a bunch of, as some one said earlier, scratch off tickets in the hope we get that 1st round caliber player at some future date. Much like anyone else who plays scratch offs, you end up mainly with UDFA caliber players, which is exactly what we have drafted since Tepper took over.

[strato]

1 minute ago, kungfoodude said:

No, I thought we were going to maybe draft intelligently for once and actually get people that, I don't know, can play professional football. Not a bunch of, as some one said earlier, scratch off tickets in the hope we get that 1st round caliber player at some future date. Much like anyone else who plays scratch offs, you end up mainly with UDFA caliber players, which is exactly what we have drafted since Tepper took over.

I only understand why they were taken, I did not endorse doing it (though I do like Legette but wasn't married to it).

There is a difference in seeing the why vs what I would have preferred. I don't like to take RBs that high. I wanted some defense. But it ain't what I wanted it was about that damned QB. 

Not acknowledging that some moves were need based around helping the QB, is just being obtuse. It is absolutely part of the why. 

Get that fuger out of the picture and let's get on with it.

[kungfoodude]

18 minutes ago, strato said:

I only understand why they were taken, I did not endorse doing it (though I do like Legette but wasn't married to it).

There is a difference in seeing the why vs what I would have preferred. I don't like to take RBs that high. I wanted some defense. But it ain't what I wanted it was about that damned QB. 

Not acknowledging that some moves were need based around helping the QB, is just being obtuse. It is absolutely part of the why. 

Get that fuger out of the picture and let's get on with it.

It was less about the QB than the thought that we just knew better than anyone. We could have waited and another WR(most likely better) would have easily dropped in our lap in the 2nd. Nope. Instead we trade to get XL because "he's our guy."

Dumb. Classic Fitterer BS.

You could have fixed an obvious hole in the offense in round two and drafted Zach Frazier, a center for your bright shiny new QB for the next decade plus. Nope. RB that might not even play in 2024. 

Dumb. Classic Fitterer BS.

We can keep going down the list and it's just gonna get worse. A bunch of guys that aren't ready to play. 

Classic Fitterer.

[TheSpecialJuan]

We fired Adrian Wilson (for good cause) but never replaced him 

[Waldo]

2 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

It was less about the QB than the thought that we just knew better than anyone. We could have waited and another WR(most likely better) would have easily dropped in our lap in the 2nd. Nope. Instead we trade to get XL because "he's our guy."

Dumb. Classic Fitterer BS.

You could have fixed an obvious hole in the offense in round two and drafted Zach Frazier, a center for your bright shiny new QB for the next decade plus. Nope. RB that might not even play in 2024. 

Dumb. Classic Fitterer BS.

We can keep going down the list and it's just gonna get worse. A bunch of guys that aren't ready to play. 

Classic Fitterer.

It's Fritterer 2.0 basically

[TD alt]

3 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

It was less about the QB than the thought that we just knew better than anyone. We could have waited and another WR(most likely better) would have easily dropped in our lap in the 2nd. Nope. Instead we trade to get XL because "he's our guy."

Dumb. Classic Fitterer BS.

You could have fixed an obvious hole in the offense in round two and drafted Zach Frazier, a center for your bright shiny new QB for the next decade plus. Nope. RB that might not even play in 2024. 

Dumb. Classic Fitterer BS.

We can keep going down the list and it's just gonna get worse. A bunch of guys that aren't ready to play. 

Classic Fitterer.

You're just an XL hater. He was never supposed to be Nabers, Odunze or Harrison coming out. But he looks to be a lot better than you're making him out to be. He's not a classic project, he's perhaps a classic first year receiver that needs to learn, that is being brought along slowly, as that's what the coaches want to do. He was drafted right in between Worthy and Keon Coleman. Just from the little bit that I've seen of all three, I suspect that Legette is going to be the most complete pro. Of course the injury bug has reared its ugly fangs, but I'm not mad about drafting Legette at the end of the day. He looks game (as does our third round pick).

[Mr. Scot]

10 hours ago, kungfoodude said:

@Mr. Scot is this something you did a deep dive on in the past by chance?

It's been a while...

If I recall correctly, there were a lot of changes when Rhule and Fitterer took over. And I remember in recent years feeling like we didn't have enough experience in that department. I'd probably need to take a closer look though. Sometimes it felt like we were just hiring people who were available as opposed to the best candidates.

Historically, they had some decent guys under Marty (many of whom have risen to executive level since), a good number of which got here earlier, some from the beginning of the franchise. With Marty making the final decisions though, a lot went wrong. There were always gonna be limits to that setup no matter how good the scouts were.

Gettleman? I know he made some changes (chief among them elevating Brandon Beans) but also said he didn't wanna make too many. During his time we had our best overall roster management, but it was inconsistent at points. Then he went to the Giants and took the opposite approach, kicking out well established people.

Fitt brought in some people that had decent reputations, but also some that were head scratchers. Never totally understood going with Cole Spencer to run college scouting when I felt like there were more qualified people like his old buddy Scot McCloughan (whose son is still on staff, I believe)

Like others, I was thrilled when we brought Adrian Wilson aboard but...oy

Where are we now? Well, our GM is a pro personnel guy by trade. Are we doing better in that department than we are in college scouting? Maybe, but it's kinda hard to tell when nobody can stay healthy.

Honestly, it feels as if there's not a consistent vision or structure in the scouting, like if you threw a bunch of Coryell and WCO guys together on a roster and expected a smooth offense. Not sure if I'm explaining those thoughts clearly, but hey

My vote, as I've said many times, is a full overhaul by someone who knows his sh-t, but I'm not holding my breath. I like Morgan, and if he's willing to stand up to Tepper that's a plus...

...but not enough on its own.

Edited October 8 by Mr. Scot